jorge1
06-05-2003, 02:52 PM
About time.:rolleyes:
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GamerBoyFranco
06-06-2003, 10:27 PM
I hope they do, I dont even consider Solaris's to be real computers, because their so dumb.
frnkzks
06-07-2003, 03:13 AM
Have you every really used a Solaris machine? I am not talking about the Intel version of Solaris (some OS featues disabled), but on a Sun Sparc station.
I used a Sun Sparc station for the first time in 1996, as a freshman EE student. I absolutely love it! As a matter of fact, I do still most of my computing on a Solaris box today.
If you don't know enough about Solaris to talk about it, you need to shut up.
I used a Sun Sparc station for the first time in 1996, as a freshman EE student. I absolutely love it! As a matter of fact, I do still most of my computing on a Solaris box today.
If you don't know enough about Solaris to talk about it, you need to shut up.
GamerBoyFranco
06-07-2003, 08:46 AM
I use Solaris's everyday in school. They Suck!
frnkzks
06-09-2003, 02:38 AM
You suck!
You are probably too stupid to utilize the full power of Unix.
If Solaris truely sucks, the large companies would not use them for mission critical work.
Let me explain it in a simpler way so you might understand what I am saying. There are the automatic transmission and manual transmission cars. It is easy for people who doesn't know how to drive a manual transmission car to say "Manual sucks!"
However, a lot of people who drive manual transmission cars will say "I have more control over my car. My car is more fuel efficient. And it's less expensive." It is clear to see that with the added complexity (of a car or computer), you get more power and control.
The only reasonable conclusion to draw from your statements is that you are stupid ignorant.
You are probably too stupid to utilize the full power of Unix.
If Solaris truely sucks, the large companies would not use them for mission critical work.
Let me explain it in a simpler way so you might understand what I am saying. There are the automatic transmission and manual transmission cars. It is easy for people who doesn't know how to drive a manual transmission car to say "Manual sucks!"
However, a lot of people who drive manual transmission cars will say "I have more control over my car. My car is more fuel efficient. And it's less expensive." It is clear to see that with the added complexity (of a car or computer), you get more power and control.
The only reasonable conclusion to draw from your statements is that you are stupid ignorant.
frnkzks
06-09-2003, 02:42 AM
In the unlikely case that you are more intelligent than I gave you credit for, be prepared to defend your assertions!
jorge1
06-09-2003, 08:39 AM
lol:t
AllGamer
06-09-2003, 04:13 PM
i'll have to agree with frnkzks, but guys, please don't flame in the public forum, you guys can take it via PM if you want to continue.
now back to the topic, yes it was about time for Java to fully realize its potential for gamming in the cross platform arenas.
if more Games developer moves more toward Java than Direct X, then we can see some nice and decent games that can run all across the OSes without having the current troubles porting DX games into Linux and alike.
I use both Sun Sparc and x86 here at work, running both version 8 and 9 for both platform
Solaris will be fully supporting the X86 version for 9.0 only, but still compared to the 9.0 in the Sparc it lacks of many funtionality
i'll say we'll have to wait for at least version 10 or in reality Solaris 3.0 to really see some more support for the x86 side.
but in the Sparc it totally rules
same reason why Sun is planning to take LINUX to court
cuz they are somewhat affraid of the Competition :D
FREE (Linux) vs Pay (Solaris).... hmmm tuff choice, lol :p
:t
now back to the topic, yes it was about time for Java to fully realize its potential for gamming in the cross platform arenas.
if more Games developer moves more toward Java than Direct X, then we can see some nice and decent games that can run all across the OSes without having the current troubles porting DX games into Linux and alike.
I use both Sun Sparc and x86 here at work, running both version 8 and 9 for both platform
Solaris will be fully supporting the X86 version for 9.0 only, but still compared to the 9.0 in the Sparc it lacks of many funtionality
i'll say we'll have to wait for at least version 10 or in reality Solaris 3.0 to really see some more support for the x86 side.
but in the Sparc it totally rules
same reason why Sun is planning to take LINUX to court
cuz they are somewhat affraid of the Competition :D
FREE (Linux) vs Pay (Solaris).... hmmm tuff choice, lol :p
:t
cwin
06-10-2003, 10:03 AM
Good idea, and i would use it, but, i have a gut feeling it wont take off :(
If it could do as well as flash then :D
If it could do as well as flash then :D
AllGamer
06-10-2003, 10:35 AM
that's Exactely where Java is heading
the saw what FLASH can do, it evolved from just plain annoying flashing ADs to a full fledged multimedia platform
and now Sun wants Java to do the same
so really the only competitor outhere is just Macromedia line of codes, and PHP 4, and Java itself, well of course we still have same old same old Active X from MS
but that is NOT cross platform :D muahahaha, :r so it'll most likely die out
the saw what FLASH can do, it evolved from just plain annoying flashing ADs to a full fledged multimedia platform
and now Sun wants Java to do the same
so really the only competitor outhere is just Macromedia line of codes, and PHP 4, and Java itself, well of course we still have same old same old Active X from MS
but that is NOT cross platform :D muahahaha, :r so it'll most likely die out
pslung
06-11-2003, 06:53 PM
This will never take off. Computer games are all about performance, while Java is not. After 8 years, Java still comes with a stiff performance penalty. I simply don't any game developers out there using Java to develop his next generation Doom engine.
cwin
06-12-2003, 02:43 AM
Flash kinda took off...
It could easild do platform and shootem ups. WAtch the xaio xaio stick men movies and on one of them you can have a go!
Mabey stuff like that will be built into future releases of java
It could easild do platform and shootem ups. WAtch the xaio xaio stick men movies and on one of them you can have a go!
Mabey stuff like that will be built into future releases of java
AllGamer
06-12-2003, 09:54 AM
pslung
that was back then before MS lost the case for JAVA and all related antitrust stuff.
Real Java codes runs fast and smooth, crappy java codes from MS or not, specially from newbies programming in java, will have that problem
have you tried any new Java games or program?
i have, and they run fine and fast.
a 2nd thing to take into consideration is BANDWITDH if you are on a 56K modem, then yeah Java is not for you
Java script is, but not full Java programs that is meant to run over the net.
the samples you get when you install SUN JAVA are very good, most system, even slower ones i've put them on, can run those at normal speed
they might not look pretty, but they are a start
:t
that was back then before MS lost the case for JAVA and all related antitrust stuff.
Real Java codes runs fast and smooth, crappy java codes from MS or not, specially from newbies programming in java, will have that problem
have you tried any new Java games or program?
i have, and they run fine and fast.
a 2nd thing to take into consideration is BANDWITDH if you are on a 56K modem, then yeah Java is not for you
Java script is, but not full Java programs that is meant to run over the net.
the samples you get when you install SUN JAVA are very good, most system, even slower ones i've put them on, can run those at normal speed
they might not look pretty, but they are a start
:t
pslung
06-12-2003, 03:04 PM
AllGamer
I'm sure that some Java games can run smoothly. But those games are not the ones that people snatch up at the store shelves of your local video game store, nor the subject of twenty page preview articles in game magazines. They're are certainly not the ones being show cased at E3, nor are there people just waiting to get their hands on them. In short, they're not really part of the gaming "market".
Like I said, there is an inherent performance penalty that comes with Java, which means that Java is only good for writing games that don't require the latest and greatest 3D graphic effects and high FPS rates at 1024x768. In effect, they're not good for writing games that people would pay for. When these game developers are going bald and losing sleep trying to squeeze every last drop of performance out of their code, they certainly would not contemplate using a language that gives them an automatic performance penalty(compared C/C++) to begin with.
I simply don't think that Sun understands the general consumer market, much less the gaming market. Just the fact that NO famous games today(Unreal, Quake, CS, EQ, etc) or in the near future(Doom3, HL2, EQ2, etc) are written in Java should give them a hint about the place of Java in the video game industry.
I'm sure that some Java games can run smoothly. But those games are not the ones that people snatch up at the store shelves of your local video game store, nor the subject of twenty page preview articles in game magazines. They're are certainly not the ones being show cased at E3, nor are there people just waiting to get their hands on them. In short, they're not really part of the gaming "market".
Like I said, there is an inherent performance penalty that comes with Java, which means that Java is only good for writing games that don't require the latest and greatest 3D graphic effects and high FPS rates at 1024x768. In effect, they're not good for writing games that people would pay for. When these game developers are going bald and losing sleep trying to squeeze every last drop of performance out of their code, they certainly would not contemplate using a language that gives them an automatic performance penalty(compared C/C++) to begin with.
I simply don't think that Sun understands the general consumer market, much less the gaming market. Just the fact that NO famous games today(Unreal, Quake, CS, EQ, etc) or in the near future(Doom3, HL2, EQ2, etc) are written in Java should give them a hint about the place of Java in the video game industry.
AllGamer
06-16-2003, 03:04 PM
well as i mentioned earlier, it would be a fantasy for that to happend, what Sun is aiming at gaming is more to be at the same level with Macromedia and the Flash/Shockwave enviroment
there are decent "3D" games running on Flash, but of course they are way far compared to current PC games
the level of 3D macromedia has archived so far is like what we got way back then with 3D Nukem and DOOM style
but eventually they will become better, and that's what Sun is hoping Java to become.
there are decent "3D" games running on Flash, but of course they are way far compared to current PC games
the level of 3D macromedia has archived so far is like what we got way back then with 3D Nukem and DOOM style
but eventually they will become better, and that's what Sun is hoping Java to become.
pslung
06-16-2003, 08:36 PM
AllGamer
Let's not forget that Sun is not a charity, and they're doing this for the money. And since we've pretty much established that NO main stream games in the past, present, or foreseeable future will use Java or Solaris technology, that kinda puts the "money" part of it in the toilet. Personally, I think it's very unlikely that Java or Solaris technology will ever be used in main stream gaming industry. Bottom line: No money, No Game Technologies Group.
Personally, I think the only hope for them is the cell phone market. The limited screen size of cell phones takes advanced graphics out of the equation. The cross platform capabilities of Java makes it THE ideal programming language for the GSM phone market, since there are new GSM phones coming out practically every other week(if you've never lived outside the US, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). But I think this is still a long shot, since I'm still not sure if people are willing to pay for games like Pacman for their cell phones.
Let's not forget that Sun is not a charity, and they're doing this for the money. And since we've pretty much established that NO main stream games in the past, present, or foreseeable future will use Java or Solaris technology, that kinda puts the "money" part of it in the toilet. Personally, I think it's very unlikely that Java or Solaris technology will ever be used in main stream gaming industry. Bottom line: No money, No Game Technologies Group.
Personally, I think the only hope for them is the cell phone market. The limited screen size of cell phones takes advanced graphics out of the equation. The cross platform capabilities of Java makes it THE ideal programming language for the GSM phone market, since there are new GSM phones coming out practically every other week(if you've never lived outside the US, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). But I think this is still a long shot, since I'm still not sure if people are willing to pay for games like Pacman for their cell phones.
fakhar
06-18-2003, 12:13 PM
i was watching the fight, guess i can interrupt you guys...
well, when you talk about gaming these days, its not only 3D scenes/rendering and stuff [and hence, performance factor]... multiplayer gaming, over a network needs advanced libraries; they are already available in Java... i dont think 3D game/engines will be made with Java any time soon, but surely Java will be used in gaming platform...
my 2 cents
well, when you talk about gaming these days, its not only 3D scenes/rendering and stuff [and hence, performance factor]... multiplayer gaming, over a network needs advanced libraries; they are already available in Java... i dont think 3D game/engines will be made with Java any time soon, but surely Java will be used in gaming platform...
my 2 cents
fakhar
06-18-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by pslung
AllGamer
Let's not forget that Sun is not a charity, and they're doing this for the money. And since we've pretty much established that NO main stream games in the past, present, or foreseeable future will use Java or Solaris technology, that kinda puts the "money" part of it in the toilet. Personally, I think it's very unlikely that Java or Solaris technology will ever be used in main stream gaming industry. Bottom line: No money, No Game Technologies Group.
Personally, I think the only hope for them is the cell phone market. The limited screen size of cell phones takes advanced graphics out of the equation. The cross platform capabilities of Java makes it THE ideal programming language for the GSM phone market, since there are new GSM phones coming out practically every other week(if you've never lived outside the US, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). But I think this is still a long shot, since I'm still not sure if people are willing to pay for games like Pacman for their cell phones.
who told you all J2ME programmers are doing pacman? check this out: http://www.tomtom.com/images/box_vrally.jpg
http://www.tomtom.com/products/platform/products.php?ID=39&Language=1
and there are many thousands of apps...
AllGamer
Let's not forget that Sun is not a charity, and they're doing this for the money. And since we've pretty much established that NO main stream games in the past, present, or foreseeable future will use Java or Solaris technology, that kinda puts the "money" part of it in the toilet. Personally, I think it's very unlikely that Java or Solaris technology will ever be used in main stream gaming industry. Bottom line: No money, No Game Technologies Group.
Personally, I think the only hope for them is the cell phone market. The limited screen size of cell phones takes advanced graphics out of the equation. The cross platform capabilities of Java makes it THE ideal programming language for the GSM phone market, since there are new GSM phones coming out practically every other week(if you've never lived outside the US, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about). But I think this is still a long shot, since I'm still not sure if people are willing to pay for games like Pacman for their cell phones.
who told you all J2ME programmers are doing pacman? check this out: http://www.tomtom.com/images/box_vrally.jpg
http://www.tomtom.com/products/platform/products.php?ID=39&Language=1
and there are many thousands of apps...
pslung
06-18-2003, 02:13 PM
fakhar
Ok, maybe the games are a notch better than PacMan. But I still question whether people are willing to pay $30 for this game. Personally, I wouldn't.
Ok, maybe the games are a notch better than PacMan. But I still question whether people are willing to pay $30 for this game. Personally, I wouldn't.
pslung
06-18-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by fakhar
i was watching the fight, guess i can interrupt you guys...
well, when you talk about gaming these days, its not only 3D scenes/rendering and stuff [and hence, performance factor]... multiplayer gaming, over a network needs advanced libraries; they are already available in Java... i dont think 3D game/engines will be made with Java any time soon, but surely Java will be used in gaming platform...
my 2 cents
Name one successful multiplayer game today and/or in the foreseeable future that does not have good graphics. I seriously doubt that Counter Strike would this successful if it had the original Castle Wolfenstein 3D graphics engine. In today's game market, you CAN have a successful game without multiplayer action(Doom 3), but not the other way around.
But, like I said before, there is a possibility that Java games could take off in the cell phone market. I wouldn't bet on it though.
i was watching the fight, guess i can interrupt you guys...
well, when you talk about gaming these days, its not only 3D scenes/rendering and stuff [and hence, performance factor]... multiplayer gaming, over a network needs advanced libraries; they are already available in Java... i dont think 3D game/engines will be made with Java any time soon, but surely Java will be used in gaming platform...
my 2 cents
Name one successful multiplayer game today and/or in the foreseeable future that does not have good graphics. I seriously doubt that Counter Strike would this successful if it had the original Castle Wolfenstein 3D graphics engine. In today's game market, you CAN have a successful game without multiplayer action(Doom 3), but not the other way around.
But, like I said before, there is a possibility that Java games could take off in the cell phone market. I wouldn't bet on it though.
fakhar
06-18-2003, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by pslung
Name one successful multiplayer game today and/or in the foreseeable future that does not have good graphics. I seriously doubt that Counter Strike would this successful if it had the original Castle Wolfenstein 3D graphics engine. In today's game market, you CAN have a successful game without multiplayer action(Doom 3), but not the other way around.
eheh, i didnt mean people will play 2D games on networks...
i meant that for 3D graphics other efficient code can be used, whole game will not purely in Java...
(server-side again ?? where java is strong, and there's no 3D on server)
Name one successful multiplayer game today and/or in the foreseeable future that does not have good graphics. I seriously doubt that Counter Strike would this successful if it had the original Castle Wolfenstein 3D graphics engine. In today's game market, you CAN have a successful game without multiplayer action(Doom 3), but not the other way around.
eheh, i didnt mean people will play 2D games on networks...
i meant that for 3D graphics other efficient code can be used, whole game will not purely in Java...
(server-side again ?? where java is strong, and there's no 3D on server)
frnkzks
06-20-2003, 12:35 PM
One of the most sucessful games in the past couple of years - The Sims (or Sims Online), is not a 3-D game. It does not require fast graphics rendering, and it can be coded in Java.
jorge1
06-20-2003, 12:57 PM
Yeah, but that is not the norm. Games will continue to go (3D) the route that they are going for two reasons:
1. Appealing to the gaming mass
Allow me to elaborate on this.
The gamer wants and will continue to crave on 3D base games. This has been the whole explotion, and success of the gaming industry: graphics, faster action, and more realism
2. Business oriented profit.
The gaming industry will follow the trend which has always been the demand on the gamers palette. This industry will never revert back to 2D.
My two cents.:rolleyes:
1. Appealing to the gaming mass
Allow me to elaborate on this.
The gamer wants and will continue to crave on 3D base games. This has been the whole explotion, and success of the gaming industry: graphics, faster action, and more realism
2. Business oriented profit.
The gaming industry will follow the trend which has always been the demand on the gamers palette. This industry will never revert back to 2D.
My two cents.:rolleyes:
pslung
06-20-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by fakhar
eheh, i didnt mean people will play 2D games on networks...
i meant that for 3D graphics other efficient code can be used, whole game will not purely in Java...
(server-side again ?? where java is strong, and there's no 3D on server)
I suppose that you can code the games partially in Java, but why bother? If you're gonna use C/C++, then just use it for everything. Why incur the cost of having to keep two sets of tools in house?
It's also possible that people can code game servers in Java. I'm sure that it's what Sun would want, since they make servers. But a game server written in Java would mean that it would not run as fast as a game server written in C/C++. This, in turn, means that the same server can "serve" less players in Java than in C/C++. So you have to calculate and see if the cost of buying extra servers can be offsetted by the savings from ease of programming. Again, if I'm a game developer, and I already have a set of good C/C++ programmers in house doing the game itself, then why bother with Java?
eheh, i didnt mean people will play 2D games on networks...
i meant that for 3D graphics other efficient code can be used, whole game will not purely in Java...
(server-side again ?? where java is strong, and there's no 3D on server)
I suppose that you can code the games partially in Java, but why bother? If you're gonna use C/C++, then just use it for everything. Why incur the cost of having to keep two sets of tools in house?
It's also possible that people can code game servers in Java. I'm sure that it's what Sun would want, since they make servers. But a game server written in Java would mean that it would not run as fast as a game server written in C/C++. This, in turn, means that the same server can "serve" less players in Java than in C/C++. So you have to calculate and see if the cost of buying extra servers can be offsetted by the savings from ease of programming. Again, if I'm a game developer, and I already have a set of good C/C++ programmers in house doing the game itself, then why bother with Java?
pslung
06-20-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by frnkzks
One of the most sucessful games in the past couple of years - The Sims (or Sims Online), is not a 3-D game. It does not require fast graphics rendering, and it can be coded in Java.
Thanks to jorge1 for answering this question for me. Like jorge1 said, Sim games are the exceptions to the rule. I don't think anybody can question the fact that the gaming "market" is dominated by 3D games today and in the foreseeable future. Of course it is still possible to make a top selling game without the latest and greatest 3D graphics. But I think it's obvious that the odds are stacked heavily against those types of games in terms of making money.
Secondly, even though 2D games are not as resource intensive as 3D games, that does not mean they don't require performance code. I remember playing the old 2D Command and Conquer series. When there are a lot of units slugging it out on the same screen, the graphics slows down dramatically. Again, games in general require performance, performance, and more performance. Java is simply not it.
One of the most sucessful games in the past couple of years - The Sims (or Sims Online), is not a 3-D game. It does not require fast graphics rendering, and it can be coded in Java.
Thanks to jorge1 for answering this question for me. Like jorge1 said, Sim games are the exceptions to the rule. I don't think anybody can question the fact that the gaming "market" is dominated by 3D games today and in the foreseeable future. Of course it is still possible to make a top selling game without the latest and greatest 3D graphics. But I think it's obvious that the odds are stacked heavily against those types of games in terms of making money.
Secondly, even though 2D games are not as resource intensive as 3D games, that does not mean they don't require performance code. I remember playing the old 2D Command and Conquer series. When there are a lot of units slugging it out on the same screen, the graphics slows down dramatically. Again, games in general require performance, performance, and more performance. Java is simply not it.
cwin
06-20-2003, 03:40 PM
Although i support Java gaming, it is true that mainstream games will not run java,
even new sim games wont run w/ java - like sims 2 with the new complete 3D engine... coming soon.:D
even new sim games wont run w/ java - like sims 2 with the new complete 3D engine... coming soon.:D
fakhar
06-21-2003, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by pslung
I suppose that you can code the games partially in Java, but why bother? If you're gonna use C/C++, then just use it for everything. Why incur the cost of having to keep two sets of tools in house?
It's also possible that people can code game servers in Java. I'm sure that it's what Sun would want, since they make servers. But a game server written in Java would mean that it would not run as fast as a game server written in C/C++. This, in turn, means that the same server can "serve" less players in Java than in C/C++. So you have to calculate and see if the cost of buying extra servers can be offsetted by the savings from ease of programming. Again, if I'm a game developer, and I already have a set of good C/C++ programmers in house doing the game itself, then why bother with Java?
well, server-side java is not at all slow .. but anyways if you don't like it you can even write in assembly, c would be slow too...
I suppose that you can code the games partially in Java, but why bother? If you're gonna use C/C++, then just use it for everything. Why incur the cost of having to keep two sets of tools in house?
It's also possible that people can code game servers in Java. I'm sure that it's what Sun would want, since they make servers. But a game server written in Java would mean that it would not run as fast as a game server written in C/C++. This, in turn, means that the same server can "serve" less players in Java than in C/C++. So you have to calculate and see if the cost of buying extra servers can be offsetted by the savings from ease of programming. Again, if I'm a game developer, and I already have a set of good C/C++ programmers in house doing the game itself, then why bother with Java?
well, server-side java is not at all slow .. but anyways if you don't like it you can even write in assembly, c would be slow too...
andy_tij
06-22-2003, 02:02 PM
:confused:
pslung
06-23-2003, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by fakhar
well, server-side java is not at all slow .. but anyways if you don't like it you can even write in assembly, c would be slow too...
There is a BIG difference in terms of ease of programming when you're going from assembly to C/C++ as opposed to from C/C++ to Java. From C++ to Java is not really that big a jump in term of ease of programming. But from assembly to C is a huge jump. It is MUCH easier to program in C than in assembly.
well, server-side java is not at all slow .. but anyways if you don't like it you can even write in assembly, c would be slow too...
There is a BIG difference in terms of ease of programming when you're going from assembly to C/C++ as opposed to from C/C++ to Java. From C++ to Java is not really that big a jump in term of ease of programming. But from assembly to C is a huge jump. It is MUCH easier to program in C than in assembly.
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