Stop the Hipocracy

[danee]

As the world prepares for the US to attack Iraq in relation to the possibility of it having weapons of Mass destruction...
and as we sit and wait to hear about the "War on Terrorism"
all I ever wonder is...
for how long will the hipocracy continue ?

War on Terror... what about all those terrorists, who's organisations are listed with the FBI, who have been trained at the previously named 'School of America's' a.k.a: Fort Benning ?
Why donate over $40 million in aide to the Taliban government in mid 2001... i presume it wasnt for there humanitiran work, but there support for the "War on Drugs". I wonder if any of that $40 million US found its way to the Opium poppies farmers in afghanistan, its then major export.

Among the SOA's nearly 60,000 graduates are notorious dictators Manuel Noriega and Omar Torrijos of Panama, Leopoldo Galtieri and Roberto Viola of Argentina, Juan Velasco Alvarado of Peru, Guillermo Rodriguez of Ecuador, and Hugo Banzer Suarez of Bolivia. Lower-level SOA graduates have participated in human rights abuses that include the assassination of Archbishop Oscar Romero and the El Mozote Massacre of 900 civilians.
Source: http://www.soaw.org/new/index.php
Of course one must remember that all good SOA graduates cover the large range of "terrorist" paramilitry groups stemming from such wonderful places as; Colombia, Bolivia, Peru and Guatemala

Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destructions... yet to be proven to actually even exist, yet the US is considering using NUCLEAR weapons to attack the country.
U.S. Weighs Tactical Nuclear Strike on Iraq (http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/012703B.us.nuke.htm)
And what about the stockpiles of US WMD's,... or is it all relative to the whole Good and Evil discussion. Sadam has EVIL WMD's where the US has only GOOD WMD's.
Of course, noone can universally define what Good or Evil actually mean.

[danee]

Okay,.. so to be fair and not discriminate,
Its not just the US preparing to attack Iraq;
also currentlky supporting with troops, equipment etc is
the UK and Australia. From what im aware Germany, France & Italy are still undecided as to whether back the US led campaign.
(Please note; I never voted for the current Australian government, and am strongly voicing my opposition of it)

Though through all of this, i cant believe how hipocricital the US government is being in considering to use Nuclear weapons, when it is apparently trying to rid the world of them...

Latin America... where do we begin. This area was tormented by the CIA for years to usually extend the interests of Corporate America, by supressing local community voice and supporting right wing ruling military dictactorships.

The "War on Terrorism" appears to have a long jourey ahead of it, on the homefront.

[Bovon]

America is a long way from being perfect...nobody will disagree with that...especially Americans.

To use nuclear weapons or to not use nuclear weapons...which would you choose if you were attacked by one, and you had some in your arsenal?...just say ok?...I will give you that one strike..just don't try it again...and again...and agian?

Nuclear weapons (unfortunately) are a fact of life...if we had not developed them first, there would not be a United States as the world knows us today.

As much as anybody else anywhere..I despise the use of such a weapon, or any weapon that causes such death and destruction, however...I am realistic too... I know that this world will always harbour people in powerfull places that want to rule everyone, we here in America believe (and hope) we can make a difference in that way of thinking. We have to walk a very fine line in the world politics and in the eyes of those that watch us closely to see if we have crossed that line and have become the very war mongering source that we have been defending against. Sure, we make mistakes...we are human...same as you are, and we will continue to make mistakes..thats how we are, as we continue to try to help protect the oppressed nations populous.

As I read the many thoughts here and there by others that dissagree with our policy, I am reminded of the 1960s era and the "flower children". These young people had violently opposed the war in Viet Nam. It was not so much the reasons for the conflict...ie...Communism vs Capitalism...but the way the war was micro-managed by the White House. The main problem, then as now, was the fact that everybody had an answer..but there was too many answers. If you, (not "you" as an individual) if you have a problem with the way the world works...fine, voice your opinion, but at the same time...please be good enough to have an alternate...viable plan to instigate instead.

Its fine to express ones opinion, and no one objects to a valid opinion..but when we come to the point of saying what is happening (or about to happen) without expressing a well considered alternate procedure, is as bad as the original plan may be.

[chubtub]

Wow good post there Bovon. As things stand right now we as none insiders of the goverment do not have the information to make a decision on this as of yet. There are things that the Gov knows that they do not want to tell us for one reason or another.

However they did day that they would tell us and give evidence in the up coming week. Until then we can not really say.

There is a possablity that they will have a case to go in. There is also the possablity that they are scrambling looking for some ounce of proof and have nothing.

[BadBadNeil]

how about this. we leave iraq. other countries who are not with us sign a paper saying if iraq in the future due to us leaving causes another conflict or aides in any terrorism with the united states they are personally responsible.

theres no hypocracy going on. The world needs a leader or else there would be even more chaos. I dont think the US would use its nukes unless someone nuked us first, it is the last resort whereas terrorists would use one if they had it, no doubt. Big difference.

[Billforce]

¨WALK SOFTLY BUT CARRY A BIG STICK¨ Armchair quarterbacks who simply don´t have a real grasp of the actual situation are simply noisemakers who are committed to opposing anything and everything. Bovan mirrors my methodology of operating a business, although it extrapolates into operating a country also, in that I never allowed employees to simply ¨*****¨about a situation unless they had a workable alternative. Anyone can criticize any action by any group, if your objective is simply to find fault. It follows that after you are 35 years old that you will realize ¨in all probability that your father was smarter than you are¨. Before you attempt to right the ills of the world, you better get some GREASE under your fingernails and offer a workable alternative.

[bushmaster]

Havent we learned better yet ?. If we don't respond to this persons pontificating, they'll have nobody to quote and argue with.

[Bovon]

There are things that the Gov knows that they do not want to tell us for one reason or another.The reason is...we have intellegence people over there...risking their very lives to keep the free world informed. There are any number of people in different places...most times they don't know the other exists...this way, the intellegence they gather can be cross checked against the other, which does not always amount to the complete picture...but the more people gathering intellegence, the better the data. We will not give out with the source of this information and have these people killed in some horrible way.

I will go along with whatever this country offers in the way of information...at least until I know they are wrong...so far, all Iraq has offered is talk.

how about this. we leave iraq. other countries who are not with us sign a paper saying if iraq in the future due to us leaving causes another conflict or aides in any terrorism with the united states they are personally responsible.

Won't work...as with our country, leaders change...and with the administration changes, come differences in "signed papers"...an example is here with our own administration where we have pretty well shot down an older treaty with the Soviets concerning anti balistic missle systems.

Putting something on paper is a good start...but changing minds is better.

If and when the terrorists aquire nuclear weapons...many people in America will die. If we retaliate immediately...the rest of the world will believe we started it...if we wait to get those that signed some paper awhile back..the terrorists are gone, and proof will be hard to come by.

By far, its much better for us immediately to try to head off any future problem by some half wit that has world rule in the back of his mind rather than wait until he can get his weapons online.

Right on Billforce

[Billforce]

Hey Mr. ¨B¨

You never set a bridge on fire, then write a letter for the water to put it out.:t

[Bovon]

Hmmm. not being that intellegent myself, I had to go lookup pontificate. Somehow, I wish I had just accepted it. :eek: ..LOL...

pon·tif·i·cate
(p¼n-t¹f“¹-k¹t, -k³t”) n. 1. The office or term of office of a pontiff. --pon·tif·i·cate intr.v. pon·tif·i·cat·ed, pon·tif·i·cat·ing, pon·tif·i·cates (-k³t”). 1. To express opinions or judgments in a dogmatic way. 2. To administer the office of a pontiff. --pon·tif”i·ca“tion n. --pon·tif“i·ca”tor n.

dog·mat·ic
(dôg-m²t“¹k, d¼g-) adj. 1. Relating to, characteristic of, or resulting from dogma. 2. Characterized by an authoritative, arrogant assertion of unproved or unprovable principles. --dog·mat“i·cal·ly adv.

dog·ma
(dôg“m…, d¼g“-) n., pl. dog·mas or dog·ma·ta (-m…-t…). 1. Theology. A doctrine or a corpus of doctrines relating to matters such as morality and faith, set forth in an authoritative manner by a church. 2. An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true. 3. A principle or belief or a group of them.

You never set a bridge on fire, then write a letter for the water to put it out. :D

:t

[Billforce]

Öh My goodness! My Karma just ran over my Dogma! LOL

[user0209]

Originally posted by Bovon
if you have a problem with the way the world works...fine, voice your opinion, but at the same time...please be good enough to have an alternate...viable plan to instigate instead.

Its fine to express ones opinion, and no one objects to a valid opinion..but when we come to the point of saying what is happening (or about to happen) without expressing a well considered alternate procedure, is as bad as the original plan may be.

Yes, perfectly said.

I've long been awared of the fact that many many people can strongly criticise others but they themselves lack of solutions or alternatives.

[Giblet Plus!]

Hipocracy

http://www.xmission.com/~hoglezoo/images/hippo.jpg

hy·poc·ri·sy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (h-pkr-s)
n. pl. hy·poc·ri·sies
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.

[mireland]

That's no hippo, that's my wife!!! (well now ex wife!)
:D

[danee]

Originally posted by Bovon
America is a long way from being perfect...nobody will disagree with that...especially Americans.

Even Australia is really screwed up im discovering now...
In the last 10yrs alone, Aust. has been up on War Crimes and in front of the ICC for trying to claim ownership of territorial waters in East Timor, in an effort to secure access to natural gas for Aust. Mutlinational Corporations.
Of course, the Aust. government never wants it citizens to know this information.


As much as anybody else anywhere..I despise the use of such a weapon, or any weapon that causes such death and destruction, however...I am realistic too... I know that this world will always harbour people in powerfull places that want to rule everyone,
Are you talking about 'ol Georgie Boy here ?
Cause thats the impression I have of him.


we here in America believe (and hope) we can make a difference in that way of thinking. We have to walk a very fine line in the world politics and in the eyes of those that watch us closely to see if we have crossed that line and have become the very war mongering source that we have been defending against. Sure, we make mistakes...we are human...same as you are, and we will continue to make mistakes..thats how we are, as we continue to try to help protect the oppressed nations populous.

Are you saying that you actually believe this is about "helping" the people of Iraq ?
In my opinion, I would say the interest in Iraq is the Oil - and we have already discussed this in other threads.

As to helping Iraqi's.. I believe Madeline Allbright (prev. Sect. of State) reflected the interests of the Administration during the Gulf War.
When questioned about: "How do you feel about the fact that as a result of US Sanctions on Iraq, more than 500,000 Iraqi children have died ?"
Her reply: "It was a hard decision to make at the time, but we feel it was the best one."
I suppose you could call this helping...
helping them to die.
I can provide a link for this quote as well.


As I read the many thoughts here and there by others that dissagree with our policy, I am reminded of the 1960s era and the "flower children". These young people had violently opposed the war in Viet Nam. It was not so much the reasons for the conflict...ie...Communism vs Capitalism...but the way the war was micro-managed by the White House. The main problem, then as now, was the fact that everybody had an answer..but there was too many answers.

The hippies of the 60's and 70's...
Firstly, from memory, the US finally withdrew because of the overwhelming majority back home who didnt want the war - not just the hippies.
As to the hippies themselves.. theres many, many, more reasons within these people, and i wouldnt really be thinking its to do with the way the Whitehouse was "micro-managed"


If you, (not "you" as an individual) if you have a problem with the way the world works...fine, voice your opinion, but at the same time...please be good enough to have an alternate...viable plan to instigate instead.

Very fair point indeed...
Directly for starters, i would remove George Bush from office, and have a "DEMOCRATICALLY" elected leader in power in the US.
We do all remember the fiasco of the "apparent" US elections.

Then, I would remove such wonderful US bills such as the US Patriot ACT for staters and set around reinstating things such as the 4th and 5th amendment rights for American citizens...
and you do realise these were effectively destroyed by this act ?

Stop all the military aid to places such as Israel, Colombia, Guatamela and Lebanon.
Shut down the giant Weapons industry, which is so important to the US economy.

Reinstate or create laws to try corprate leaders as criminals, and hold them directly responsible for the debts of businesses.
E.g: Make Kenneth Lay responsible for Enron and all its debts.


Its fine to express ones opinion, and no one objects to a valid opinion..but when we come to the point of saying what is happening (or about to happen) without expressing a well considered alternate procedure, is as bad as the original plan may be.

Other thoughts...
many years previous to the Gulf War.. actually going back to the Iraq/Iran War, the US administration supported Sadam is the suppressing of local community voice against his own ruling dictatorship. Obviously alot of this support was in the way of Weaponry, which was then carried on and used to support both the Iraqi's and Iran (both sides !!) during the Iraq/Iran conflict.
This is why im very dubious as to the claim to help the citizens.
More often than not, the US admin will support right wing militry dictatorships in other countries, if it is in the interest of Corporate America... espically its Weapons industry.
Do I need to provide examples of this in Latin America ?

So I suppose a large part of the problem is the power that multinational corporations have now. Governments contiually adjust Corporate law to suit the tax interest of the companies for example.
As to a Capitalistic problem in society... this is a whole new ball park for another discussion.

[BadBadNeil]

Originally posted by Bovon

Won't work...as with our country, leaders change...and with the administration changes, come differences in "signed papers"...an example is here with our own administration where we have pretty well shot down an older treaty with the Soviets concerning anti balistic missle systems.

Putting something on paper is a good start...but changing minds is better.

If and when the terrorists aquire nuclear weapons...many people in America will die. If we retaliate immediately...the rest of the world will believe we started it...if we wait to get those that signed some paper awhile back..the terrorists are gone, and proof will be hard to come by.

By far, its much better for us immediately to try to head off any future problem by some half wit that has world rule in the back of his mind rather than wait until he can get his weapons online.

Right on Billforce

excuse my attempt at being sarcastic ;)

On a side note:
There really is no "solution" that will fix everything. It has taken many years to come to this point, it won't be fixed in a month, a year, or even a decade I think.

[danee]

Originally posted by BadBadNeil

There really is no "solution" that will fix everything. It has taken many years to come to this point, it won't be fixed in a month, a year, or even a decade I think.

Good call, BadBadNeil.

And why is there no "solution" that will fix everything ?
... because we are all different.

[Bovon]

danee..I can't take much issue with some things you say...sure..it is undoubtably about oil, at least to a great degree. The world economy is dependent on oil...we think the downturn in the economy was bad after 09/11/01...just let oil become unreasonable or not even processed for a month or two...we will all be running in circles, and the worlds machines will come to a grinding stop.

I don't like to think that this country is vindictive, and all of this is some kind of retaliation by the Bush's, but without that kind of personal insight, I would not know. I do know one thing...if by some chance it comes out that Geo. Bush is acutally being vindictive towards Iraq and/or the Muslems in general...the Republican Party just as well as go run some other political party somewhere because we do have a lot of trust in our leaders, but we also have a long memory.

No, I wasn't talking about 'ol Georgie Boy... I was referring to the tyrants down thru history...and there are and will be others...George Bush maybe one of them?..I don't think so..but we'll see...won't we?..

Directly for starters, i would remove George Bush from office, and have a "DEMOCRATICALLY" elected leader in power in the US.
We do all remember the fiasco of the "apparent" US elections.

I'm not sure what you are saying here...but it borders on treason!!..and just between you and I...I ain't going there.

You have your opinions...and I respect your opinions, however...it does appear that you also have a negative attitude towards us and our feeble ways so, I will let the rest of your comments ride as is... I cannot respond further without getting my "dander" up, and that proves nothing.

Hopefully someday, we will come across in your eyes a little better...if not, then pray that Australia never gets occupied by some rogue bunch of arses and need some help...any kind of help, even a dumbarse American.

[BadBadNeil]

Anyone see what good ol' Mr. Mandela had to say today?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/01/30/sprj.irq.mandela/index.html


Only mandela could find a way to turn this into a race issue... When all else fails theres a sure way to get some people riled up.

He makes some good points in his speaking but I think he crosses the line on many issues but I find it funny how everyone supports war if the UN approves it but dont support it when its the US and britain. Its still the same war. Even with full UN support it will still be just the US and britain going in as usual.

[danee]

Originally posted by Bovon
danee..I can't take much issue with some things you say...sure..it is undoubtably about oil, at least to a great degree. The world economy is dependent on oil...we think the downturn in the economy was bad after 09/11/01...just let oil become unreasonable or not even processed for a month or two...we will all be running in circles, and the worlds machines will come to a grinding stop.
But will the machines come to a halt ? Does anyone know that for sure ? - Or is it just another scare factor... remember Y2K and the end of all computers. (This had nothing to do with War)
In my opinion, the threat of World Wide Oil shortage, all because Iraq isnt attacked, is ludicrous.
Iraq produces less than 10% of the world's total Oil production.
The US uses more than 40% of the total world Oil usage as a percentage.
To believe that there will be an Oil shortage, is to believe on a daily basis, the world consumes the same amount of Oil it derives from the ground, thus there are no Oil reserves - as man daily (as a planetry whole) uses every last drop we extract from every single Oil well, on a daily basis.
So... if this isnt the case, then how is there going to be a world wide Oil shortage - And why, hasnt it started yet ? Or will this Oil shortage only actually begin (by coincincidence) on the exact same day War is declared upon Iraq ?


I don't like to think that this country is vindictive, and all of this is some kind of retaliation by the Bush's, but without that kind of personal insight, I would not know. I do know one thing...if by some chance it comes out that Geo. Bush is acutally being vindictive towards Iraq and/or the Muslems in general...the Republican Party just as well as go run some other political party somewhere because we do have a lot of trust in our leaders, but we also have a long memory.
Bush has already publicily announced this is a small part vindictive... remember "He tried to kill my Daddy".


I'm not sure what you are saying here...but it borders on treason!!..and just between you and I...I ain't going there.

The farce of a election !!! Dont tell me you dont remember that George never actually got the most amount of votes... or you dont remember the election atleast.
As to treason... Id like to believe that one day his "manuvering" on that election day, while be recognised as treasonous, as he was never the candidate with THE MOST NUMBER OF VOTES - which is the cornerstone of a "democratic" election.


You have your opinions...and I respect your opinions, however...it does appear that you also have a negative attitude towards us and our feeble ways so, I will let the rest of your comments ride as is... I cannot respond further without getting my "dander" up, and that proves nothing.

My negative attitude is towards your "feeble leaders", who were not democratically elected.


Hopefully someday, we will come across in your eyes a little better...if not, then pray that Australia never gets occupied by some rogue bunch of arses and need some help...any kind of help, even a dumbarse American.
Australia's already occupied by a bunch of rogue arses - usually they're recognised as Politicans.
I call them rogue, as they're not representing the Australian people... they're representing the Interests of American Politicans (in particular Georgie) who they're so deeply in love with.

[ukulele]

Your posts are as usual hilarious danee. It is a pleasure to read such a poorly researched satire. I too am tired of the usual retoric we read in the news every day. We dearly need opposing views such as yours if for no other reason then to remind us all what little we all really know about global politics. No doubt if the real truth was shared by the general populace it would be a grim shadow that casts it's ugly darkness on all the world. For now we at least have hope that the future holds something brighter for our children. If the truth was revealed to all, we would no doubt wither in dispair at the reality of so many tyrants in so many places in the world. Your comments and twisted views remind us all that freedom is our most valuable possesion indeed. All work and no play makes jack a dull boy.

[bushmaster]

I think it can all be summed up with a simple mathematical equasion. Politics = control over $. Does anybody honestly think that a war or a depression or lack of good public schooling or lack of jobs or a social service system that works is really going to have any affect on the people and the families of the people that run this country ?.
It's all about harvesting the wealth that exsists today for those in control.
If the powers that be can't win an election they just hijack the results.

The welfare reform/workfare is a farce. It works as such. When you apply for benefits for you and your family you are sent to dept of labor asap. If there is any work available (and theres never a shortage of minimum wage jobs) you must take it. Once employed you lose any meager benefits you might have gotten because your now "working". Generally the person can't make ends meet on that job, gets laid off or fired, and runs the welfare/workfare gauntlet again, or at least till they run down the max amount of 5 years worth of help they can get. It's all a scam that keeps the dept of social services running like a revolving door so that those with the secure govt. jobs stay employed.

It's that old addage that would make good sense here. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach that man to fish and he eats for life.

Same applys to welfare. Spend the same money on vocational training so that you better the persons standards in life and they cease to be a repeat customer of the system.
But wait !!! if you do that then the need for govt. employees to handle the overflowing case loads would lessen, and the need to divert tax dollars into that system would lessen. Can't have that, can we.

When we go to war the powers that be don't care because their kids won't be fighting it. When America enters the next depression the powers that be won't care because it wont be them standing on soup lines or looking for shelters to keep their families warm.
Their kids will still be attending ivy league schools and carrying prada bookbags and eating at 5 star restaurants at the peoples expense.

[ukulele]

Sorry bushmaster, but it just doesn't work that way at all. I have never applied for welfare but living in a primarily democratic state where the welfare rate is amoung the highest in the nation I know a lot of people who do. A large minority are drug addicts who refuse to work and get all the drugs they want from unscrupulious doctors who charge it to the state at the expense of the wealthy taxpayers. The unempolyment division (which is state run) does not require you to take any job that pays less then the median wage for your occupation, nor do they require you to take a job not in your line of work. Furthermore, any person on welfare is automatically eligible to apply for financial aid in both public and private schools and if you can show you are working hard and get good grades you are also eligible for additional grants and scholarships, regardless of your age, race or religious beliefs. Food stamps are available to any citizen or immigrant who can show financial need even if they are employed. To suggest otherwise is a disservice to your country and only demonstrates a lack of actual knowledge of the way social services work in America. Most if not all third world countries have absolutely no such social services and nor do they have the wealthy taxpayers to fund it.

[bushmaster]

You simply are wrong in your uderstanding on how the welfare/workfare system now operates. yes you can apply for financial aid, but while doing so when on welfare you must take any job offered you. Failure to take such job will put you in non-compliance, and you will not only lose any benefits but also become sanctioned and not be able to apply for any benefits for a period of 90 days from such non-compliance. You can apply for all sorts of training but still must seek and retain employment. If they find you a job killing and plucking chickens for minimal wage like it or not you must take it or be sanctioned for non-compliance.
It is true that the dept. of labor cannot make you work or take a job for less than prevailing wage in the field you are trained for. BUT thats only when you are receiving unemployment benefits.
Welfare is a completely different story alltogether with a comepletely different set of rules and regulations. Like for example, if you live in an area with no public transportation and need a vehicle to look for and go to work, but have no vehicle or access to one, when you don't go on a job search or apply to jobs that they send you to because you don't have transportation you are in non-compliance and will be sanctioned and loose all your benefits.
Those kind of "catch 22" rules and regulations abound in welfare/workfare.
Your idea of who is on welfare is is not realistic. There are plenty of people who don't have issues with drugs and alcohol who have just hit rock bottom and there is no work that pays enough to support a family that is available to them. The welfare system is not the golden teet for those that are on it, but it is for those that administrate and work for it.

[ukulele]

There are plenty of people who don't have issues with drugs and alcohol

I said a large minority.

If they find you a job killing and plucking chickens for minimal wage like it or not you must take it or be sanctioned for non-compliance.. Life is not always a bowl of cherries. I say if they can work let them find a way. I did.

Believe it or not I once rode a ten speed 8 miles to work in Tahoe in the winter time for three months because I couldn't afford a car and the insurance. Don't tell about how hard it is to keep a job and your self respect.

[danee]

Originally posted by bushmaster
I think it can all be summed up with a simple mathematical equasion. Politics = control over $. Does anybody honestly think that a war or a depression or lack of good public schooling or lack of jobs or a social service system that works is really going to have any affect on the people and the families of the people that run this country ?.
It's all about harvesting the wealth that exsists today for those in control.
If the powers that be can't win an election they just hijack the results.

The welfare reform/workfare is a farce. It works as such. When you apply for benefits for you and your family you are sent to dept of labor asap. If there is any work available (and theres never a shortage of minimum wage jobs) you must take it. Once employed you lose any meager benefits you might have gotten because your now "working". Generally the person can't make ends meet on that job, gets laid off or fired, and runs the welfare/workfare gauntlet again, or at least till they run down the max amount of 5 years worth of help they can get. It's all a scam that keeps the dept of social services running like a revolving door so that those with the secure govt. jobs stay employed.

It's that old addage that would make good sense here. Give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach that man to fish and he eats for life.

Same applys to welfare. Spend the same money on vocational training so that you better the persons standards in life and they cease to be a repeat customer of the system.
But wait !!! if you do that then the need for govt. employees to handle the overflowing case loads would lessen, and the need to divert tax dollars into that system would lessen. Can't have that, can we.

When we go to war the powers that be don't care because their kids won't be fighting it. When America enters the next depression the powers that be won't care because it wont be them standing on soup lines or looking for shelters to keep their families warm.
Their kids will still be attending ivy league schools and carrying prada bookbags and eating at 5 star restaurants at the peoples expense.

BushMaster....
so well said.. Brilliant.

And to Ukulele,..
welcome to the reality of life,...
And not the propoganda shown on CNN.

A good example of the politics of money and control is the Kennedy clan... - Has there ever, or will there ever, been a Kennedy on unemployment benefits ?
And the whole 'Catch 22' in unemployment benefits, i have a good example from australia:
Firstly, to register or be eligible for unemployment, you must be broke and unemployed. E.g: With a share portfolio say worth $25,000 you cant get it - you have investments to live off.
Anyway, "Centrelink" (Dept of Social Sec. in Aust.) oversee's - they dont actually run it themselves, outsourcing... what's called the NEIS (New Enterprise Initiative Scheme). This is where you receive unemployment benefits for 12 months, while starting your own new business; everyone knows the first 12 months in business are the hardest..
Anyway... so here i am.. broke and unemployed, and applying for the NEIS program.
I was rejected from the program on the ground's that I had no (quoting directly) 'Start up Capital... say in the $20,000 figure.'
Immediately I challenged this.. as if i had $20K i couldnt receive unemployment benefits in the first place, yet alone apply for NEIS - which requires you to be on benefits.
Anyway,.. the company running NEIS (for the gov't dep't) told me their decisions are final - I cant challenge them.
So I go to 'Centrelink' to complain - the gov't dep't... and...
they tell me its a completely self governing program, which the government dosent actually monitor.
So.. to sum up... Im rejected from a unemployment scheme, on the ground i dont have cash. In trying to complain about this to the gov't: I discover the gov't pay's X company to "apparently" run this program, but they dont actually know if it has even ever run.
Quick note... I even got it in writing (from the company running NEIS) that i was rejected as i didnt have sufficent start up capital.

Anyway to finaly finish (dragging on a bit)
O'l Georgie Boy has announced more tax cuts for the rich...
Yipee.. go Georgie...
Shareholders will no longer be required to pay tax on stock dividendeds.
Thats going to help the unemploment and homeless problem:
the rich get richer, while the poor dont get a thing.

[danee]

Originally posted by ukulele
I said a large minority.


Is that like the opposite of a small minority ?? And if so.. are you sure there a minority... sounds kinda 'large' to me.
How can a "minority" be large.. isnt that a contradiction in terms ?

Originally posted by Bovon
...sure..it is undoubtably about oil, at least to a great degree.
If this was is about Oil - to any extent, then WHY AREN'T YOU BEING TOLD THIS ?
Why do you think that CNN, NBC, BBC etc, all major media networks are not carrying this then "offical" reason ?
Are they covering this up ?

IF this is about Oil (in the majority) and not WMD's, then why this whole story ?
Even if there are weapons, and this is a "minor" reason in their agenda - then why carry this as the SOLE reason for War ?

Quite simply... there are quite a few people now who are supporting this thinking,..
and im curious as to why you believe this needs to be covered up ?

[ukulele]

Is that like the opposite of a small minority ?? And if so.. are you sure there a minority... sounds kinda 'large' to me.

Don't act stupid. If you don't know what a large minority is take a course in English 101.

Who said anything about Australian Unemployement Insurance? I sure didn't.

Anybody that knows anything at all about economics knows that the rich invest thier money in business to get richer. This creates jobs and adds money back into the ecomomy. What do you think happens to the money when the rich spend it? Socialism on the other hand bleeds the economy dry as is obvious in every country in history that ever tried it. My business is the manufacture and sale of expensive musical instruments. The rich mostly buy them, not the folks on welfare and not the government. I am certainly not rich, but I would be a lot poorer if I was trying to sell them in Russia, or Australia for that matter.

As for bushmasters comments, where is the brilliance? He dead wrong about unemployement and the poor down trodden who can't get to work, and wrong about the benefits in the American educational institutions. He just hasn't lived long enough to figure it out yet.

[bushmaster]

He just hasn't lived long enough to figure it out yet. Yeah Uke, I'm only 43 and a recovering addict/alcoholic with 17 years sober and a single dad with a 7 year old daughter, and am a Licensed EMT that works as a youth advocate and builds and repairs PC's on the side. I was born and raised in NYC and lived in the streets some of my life, and had to make my own way in life. So don't go making the assumption I havent lived long enough, or really experienced life on lifes terms. You talk about benefits in the American education system ?. Look at most of the applications you fill out for aid or to get in to school and notice where it asks for race. I know the box I always checked was second to last, last being "other" but my box being caucasian/white. The system is corrupt there is no doubt about it. Here in NY state they have legalized gambling in the form of lotto and it's many various forms plus the 100's of scratch off ticket games thats supposed to go to pay for education. Well the local sunoco gas station makes $10,000 (in a town of 3,000) a week profit from sales of said gambling devices and thats from making a couple of pennies comission on every dollar spent, yet the state is laying off teachers and closing programs and raising the tuition for higher education (state run) and that doesnt count the property taxes assesed for up to high school as well. NY pulls in billions a year from it's form of legalized gambling and most of the money ends up going to pay for "administrative costs", what a ****ing joke.
For the working class american, "the american dream" has become a living nightmare. Want job security ?, get a job with the govt. Jobs with big corporations ?, well we've seen how fragile thats become, Imagine working half your life for some big company only to find the CEO's have raped the retirement plan you were counting on, or never paid the health insurance they were taking $$ out of your paycheck for. Or the HMO you were well paid into went belly up because of "mis-spending". I think your the one thats a little insulated from the realities of life. I've lived the realities, not just read or heard about them from some news source feeding us propaganda. The harsh reality is that there are food pantry lines forming all over America as we speak. And the majority of those people standing in line are not lazy drug addicts, but rather alot of working class Americans who can't make ends meet for their families even with both parents working.
For those people there is no "system".
The U.S. is financially going under, and this "war" we are heading into, in reality is the powers that be running a diversion in order that they can clean out whatever is left of the American tax base before it's all gone and the average joe is left standing out in the cold wondering where it all went. Sorry folks.... we need to raise your income tax some more cause we spent all your money on "stuff". But not to worry anybody making above 10 million a year will not be affected by this raise in taxes.

[ukulele]

Until people start taking responsibility for their own lot in life there will always be those who blame the system. I see plenty of corruption too, but I don't for a second blame anybody but myself for the fact that I am not rich either. The difference I suppose is that I don't really care all that much about money. I just want to live my life doing what I want to do. In America I found that I can indeed do that. Complaining about it is certainly not going to make my life any better. I just out grin the suckers.

[danee]

Originally posted by ukulele
Who said anything about Australian Unemployement Insurance? I sure didn't.
Insurance.... ?? Im confused as to how you believe I was talking about Insurance... and as for "Aust. Unemployment Insurance" nothing like this exists in the country, so not sure where you derived it from.
Anyway,.. all I was trying to do was provide an example of what happens in Australia with unemployment... which is in part very similar to the US system.


Anybody that knows anything at all about economics knows that the rich invest thier money in business to get richer. This creates jobs and adds money back into the ecomomy. What do you think happens to the money when the rich spend it?

Okay,.. so you believe, that the rich invest their money in business to get richer - I wont argue with this.
But,.. "This creates jobs and adds money back into the economy" - I have a problem with.. and to what extent do your really understand modern day economics ?

FACT - In 1996-1998, the following businesses paid NO TAX:
Enron Corp, WorldCom, Walt Disney, Phillip Morris, Microsoft Corp, AT&T, General Electric & Exxon Mobil Corp. In fact many of these business claimed Tax rebates above the 0% tax already paid.
Refer: State of the Union (http://www.publicampaign.org/stateoftheunion/)
So... HOW DO THESE BUSINESSES CONTRIBUTE TO THE NATIONAL ECONOMY OF THE US ? Because all they are actually doing is taking money from the government (in the form of Tax rebates), and relining the stockholder, CEO, Board of Directors pockets.
And we cant forget either now... due to changes just made by (my personal fav.) 'ol Georgie Boy..; Upper Income earners are no longer required to pay Tax on Stock Dividendeds.

All this Tax money, not being collected...
No wonder the US economy (like Aust.) is in such bad shape, that they need to generate a war, to try and get it back on track.


Socialism on the other hand bleeds the economy dry as is obvious in every country in history that ever tried it...

So now it sounds like your chanting the anti-red or anti-commie propoganda. Do we have examples... ?
Well I do... Germany, current day, is a democratic socialist state.
They are democratic, but have a democratic socialist political belief.
Has this economy been bleed dry ?


My business is the manufacture and sale of expensive musical instruments. The rich mostly buy them, not the folks on welfare and not the government. I am certainly not rich, but I would be a lot poorer if I was trying to sell them in Russia, or Australia for that matter.

How does one generate the thought, that if one was to sell musical equipment in Aust., they would be a lot poorer ?
I presume you have some statistical exidence to support your theory, in relation to sales by GDP in Australia on a compartive level to the US ?

[ukulele]

danee, You need to take a course in economics. I don't have time for this. Sorry, find someone else to argue with.

[danee]

Originally posted by ukulele
danee, You need to take a course in economics. I don't have time for this. Sorry, find someone else to argue with.

??? Confusion.
I need to take a course in Economics apparently...
Obviously something I wrote didnt fit into your "idea" of economics.
Though, if you still like to claim I need to take a course,...
what exactly did you have a problem with ?

The truth ?