From niche market to cultural force (and GTA3 sucks!)

[tking]

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.01/nintendo.html

I think this guy is a genius, he's the reason we have any of the games we do nowadays. He practically invented the modern video game.

Critics are now saying that because he's not into making games that sensationalize crime and violence he's holding back the industry he created?

GTA3 is so game of the moment. There is nothing innovative or interesting about it beyond a mindless sense of OZ-like justifcation of violence.

All you have to do is go back and read about the idiots of Rockstar games and you begin to see who is actually trivializing and holding back gaming.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.07/rockstar.html

It's nice to know we have some class in the business.

[tking]

Following GTA3's lead I'm thinking they should come out with a game where you get to play a terrorist who hijacks a plane and flies it into a building killing thousands of innocent people. Wouldn't that be fun?

More than 30,000 people died in the United States last year due to gun related crime... and they make a game about it!

Why not make a game about something much less deadly and equally poignant to the modern mind?

[tony_j15]

Such as? I hear it a lot. People say games with guns are bad but they never offer a good alternative. Which reminds me of the Foxtrot comics this week.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

The problem is most people who interact with violent media such as films and games are one dimensional muppets, whose only interest is the blood and guts. For example to take something like the evil dead 2 or goodfellas and scarface (depalma).

The majority of viewers of those three films will go purely for the blood and guts, only a few will truly appreiate sam raimis direction, joe pesci deniros and liottas powerhouse performances or the moral depalma and stone convey that the american dream and pursuit of wealth and power through evil will lead to downfall.

Take GTA 3, the majority of PS2 owning fools wont pay attnetion to the game and its storyline of missions but will spend all their time shooting limbs of NPC's. They never engage the game at its deeper level, insteadseeking some sort of visceral thrill without actualy getting anyting really out of the game.

GTA 3 is a good game, the problem lies in the majority of people playing it being unnapreciative or as is the increasing state in todays world, just plain stupid

--Jakk:t

[tony_j15]

Looks like Jakk hit the nail on the head.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Thank You ;)

--Jakk:t

[Optimus Prime]

Nice post, Jakk.

[tking]

Originally posted by Bigjakkstaffa
GTA 3 is a good game, the problem lies in the majority of people playing it being unnapreciative

Jakk,

So you're saying the reason GTA3 is being considered a "cultural force" instead of just a game is because a bunch of doppy gits pick it up because of the hype and then don't play it at its "deeper level"?

I've got to ask, what is the deeper level GTA3 can be played at? I won't argue with you that some of the best mob films *do* have a deeper level and can be enjoyed beyond just violent content, but I doubt the same thing can be said for GTA3.

Tony,

Did you read the Miyamoto link? It's all about alternatives to shallow, gun-wielding twitch games.

I think the best media relationship with guns I saw recently was in the movie, Three Kings. Clooney is a special forces type talking to a gung-ho clueless young soldier. He explains to him how bullet wounds rupture internal organs causing instant infection and probable, very messy death.

In the American mind guns are sacred and very little thought is given to what they actually do. They aren't a cheap and easy way to equalize a fight, they don't solve problems cleanly and absolutely.

I carry an FAC, have fired everything from handguns to assault rifles, and won two marksmanship awards while I served. I'm familiar with firearms and I wouldn't say, "guns are bad". I would say people who have a completely unrealistic idea of guns and what they are capable of are more dangerous than the guns themselves.

GTA3 catters to that crowd.

[gibsinep]

America is not the only Country playing these games, listening to the music, or Watching the violent movies, but yet we have 30,000 gun homicides each year. Were places like Japan, England, and Germany are under or around 100.

Why is this, I dont know but it isn't becuase of the the games and whatnot.

I blame the American Media.


:t

[Bigjakkstaffa]

So you're saying the reason GTA3 is being considered a "cultural force" instead of just a game is because a bunch of doppy gits pick it up because of the hype and then don't play it at its "deeper level"?

The deeper level of GTA 3 although not very deep woul have to be the wacky brit humor underlying in there,also the missions variety and the fact many of them have been lifted from movies is also a nice little touch to mob movie buffs liek myself.

However my main point is most of the prats playig these games will ignore the missions and actual intended game as such in order to go seeking instant thrill killz.

GTA 3 simply cannot be classed along the likes of Deus Ex as a ground breaking allegory of video games, however it is a fun and funny game to play if you follow its structure. Sadly most prats wont folow this mission structure and will end up missing on out on the truly unique elements of the game. Their loss, they would probably too stupid to understand much of the humor anyhows

As for kids games, i fully support em. Kids deserve as much opportunity to play video games as adults, if not more due to their wealth of leisure time. I also enjoy playing the likes of mario and sonic. I may not be getting a piece of art but i will be gettign acouple of hours of innocent enjoyment.

The sad truth is we live in a world of ignorant pratts who want 700 weapons and 500 different types of blod splatter and exit wound. Admittedly they wouldnt know an AK47 from a Glock 17, and have no real understanding of violence as a human behaioural characteristic. However in a society where thrills are served instantly on a plate without any real depth needed to interprate them, people will not want to exercise their minds and stick to the instant albeit unfullfilling gore fests that can be had by picking up a chainsaw and aimlessley hacking ands slashing everything to pieces rather than playing through a games mission structure and challenging themselves aginst NPC's who can fight back and provide a challenge. The stupid masses dont want challenges from games, the want instant gratification, it happened in movies with the advent of video nasties and in music with hip hop and the like, which many kids buy not because they appreciate the music but they can giggling at the foul language, now its hapening to games.

--Jakk:t

[tking]

Gib,

I agree completely, the American media make guns sound like an exciting, empowering thing to use ... it's misleading and dangerous. Guns don't kill people, untrained, ignorant people kill people.

I watched a british tv show a while back where two cops tracked down a homicidal arsonist, but neither cop pulled a gun on her even though she was extremely dangerous. I was in culture shock because the cops didn't use guns to solve the problem.

Jakk,

Well said. I guess what bothers me about GTA3 is that it's taken on ICON status, when in fact it's just a blatant copy of other code with some edgy content thrown in. Every aspect of GTA3 has been done before (and better) in another game, it's just a marketing success by a bunch of idiots looking to cash in on an ignorant lust for innane violence.

As you say, "The stupid masses dont want challenges from games, the want instant gratification" ... and I think the reason something like GTA3 is so popular is because it does just that.

[BadBadNeil]

Who is anyone to dictate to me what I want to play? I'm not just looking for a violent experience im looking for fun and I find GTA 3 fun.

Gaming has different genres and GTA 3 is just one genre. At the end of the day no matter how violent a game I play is, I go to sleep, wake up the next morning and go to work and repeat.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Guns don't kill people, untrained, ignorant people kill people.

Your **** right on that one.

very aspect of GTA3 has been done before (and better) in another game, it's just a marketing success by a bunch of idiots looking to cash in on an ignorant lust for innane violence.

This happens throughout several forms of media. look at 80's actionfilms for example, segal, stallone, lungdren, van damme, schwarzenneger (i refuse to class willis and die hard in there as they were original and still stand up today) all of their films revolved around the regurgutation of violent stunts seen in films long before. These films have very little worth as ntellignet pieces of art, they do however serve the hunger for instant gratification. Hence the huge fan bases which, i doubt coincidentaly, in my experience tend to have very little knowledge of what good films consist of

--Jakk:t

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Tking, THANK YOU SO MUCH

This thread has brought about the end of my horrific writers block. Now if you will excuse me im off to Microshaft Word to write an article...

--Jakk:t

[morpheus kain]

I watched a british tv show a while back where two cops tracked down a homicidal arsonist, but neither cop pulled a gun on her even though she was extremely dangerous. I was in culture shock because the cops didn't use guns to solve the problem.
??? A real life tv show??? I mean tell me, if you were a cop and you were chasing someone you KNEW was homicidal why the hell WOULDN'T you draw your gun and make every attempt to protect YOURSELF!

[Bigjakkstaffa]

??? A real life tv show??? I mean tell me, if you were a cop and you were chasing someone you KNEW was homicidal why the hell WOULDN'T you draw your gun and make every attempt to protect YOURSELF!

Because british rozzers dont carry guns unless thyre part of an Armed Response Unit (our equivalent of SWAT ;))

--Jakk:t

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Oh and the SO (serious and organsied crimes) and other undercover type departments of the police do too

--Jakk:t

[tking]

Originally posted by Bigjakkstaffa
Tking, THANK YOU SO MUCH

This thread has brought about the end of my horrific writers block.

I was just sitting here thinking Jakk hasn't been as prolific as he usually is:D

<deep bow> Glad I could help! :t

[tking]

Originally posted by morpheus kain
??? A real life tv show??? I mean tell me, if you were a cop and you were chasing someone you KNEW was homicidal why the hell WOULDN'T you draw your gun and make every attempt to protect YOURSELF!

What's amazing is they used some psych training and a group approach rather than the 'loan gun-wielding hero' approach we're so used to over here and solved the problem without a shot fired. The perp was taken into custody, problem defused.

I kept waiting for the gunfight to start because I'd been convinced by how ever many North American (U.S. & Canadian) shows that this was the only way to resolve a dispute like this.

The moment of culture shock came when I realized that I was waiting for an inevitable gunfight that wasn't inevitable at all.

[Asonic]

I could not agree more!!!!

But gun crime is incressing here (UK), a young woman was gunned down by a being in the wrong place at the wrong time, it was a gang fight and the gangs are starting to use guns a lot more. She was a gang member but only there, not involved in the fight. This is what we where told by our media anyway. The problem is the more the criminals carry guns the more police will be carrying guns, so more criminals will carry guns and so on.

My theroy is (and please dont take this the wrong way) it is more to do with the amount of american tv shows/films we get here nowadays. judging buy these shows/films you americans can't have a argument with out pulling out a gun to prove your point.

I don't know if this is true or not never having been to america, but it is what the kids here see everyday and they believe it, and they think it's cool to carry a gun, makes them clever or big. They aspire to be like the people they see on the "idiot box", and that means to them that they should carry a gun and use it. Its due to a lack of education or even common sence!

I defence of violent games, I can get a lot of pent up anger and frustration out by playing games like Unreal Tornament or Mafia. But the important thing is I know its only a game, its doing something I cant/shouldn't do in real life that makes it fun and rewarding.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

I was just sitting here thinking Jakk hasn't been as prolific as he usually is

I have two ideas for articles in my head, this one and one other. Its a tough call ATM, as i only have ther opportunity to do one :(

--Jakk:t

[tony_j15]

gun crime is incressing here (UK)

Why do you think that is? Probably cause the government banned guns. Now the criminals still get them off the black market and the population has nothing to defend itself with.:(

[Bigjakkstaffa]

The public never COULD defend themselves through armed action anyways before guns were banned anyhows. Recent example is of a bloke who shot two gypsies attempting to burgal his home and with intent to harm the fella, rather sensibly the guy came out and gave em a buckshot shampoo, result one of em dies, the other sues him and wins, then the poor seod gets sent to prison for manslaughter :eek:

The British law system is a farce, had they not been up to no good in the first place they wouldnt have got what was coming to em, now that poor buggers sat in the clink for doing what IMO was the right thing for self preservation from those with intent to harm.

As for guns being illegal, i prefer it that way tnx, id rather have guns being illegal than another Dunblane tradgedy every other year, something which is becoming increasing thoughout the world.

--Jakk:t

[morpheus kain]

Jakk after hearing that load of **** about the legal system I'm sure I'll never live in Brittian.

[gibsinep]

Shame is same things happen here in America as Jack says :(

[tking]

... and in Canada too.

It was actually suggested to a woman that if her house was broken into and she was raped that the best course of action was to let him do his business and leave. The courts would have too much of a hard time deciding whether or not she used too much force in defending herself.

Ah, what a world we live in... you can steal billions from stakeholders and get an 18 month jail sentence in club med, but if you rob $100 from a convenience store you're looking at 10+ years hard time.

If someone breaks into your house and you take them down in self defence you're as likely to end up on the defence stand as you are a crown witness.

Into all this you mix media that tells you violence (preferably gun-related) is always the answer and you've got to wonder why there aren't more people in mental institutions.

[Bronco2Guy]

Jumping in kinda late here!

The Answer/reason will never be solved. Whether its media, news, games or guns. "Guns don't kill people, untrained, ignorant people kill people." This is a very true fact. Most people that carry guns in the US probably couldn't tell an Ak47 from a Glock its a sad fact. It doesn't by any means tell us why the homocidal rate of death is 30k vs that of the UK 100 How is that?
But from what you were saying I don't really want to live there either.

GTA 3, Mafia, Unreal, Counter-Strike, DOOM, Quake you name it they all served a purpose to entertain and humor us. While some think that the Columbine Shootings had something to do with Doom, I beg to differ, Ignorant people kill people. The media probably has something to do with it but I think more evident is how children are brought up in todays society. Parent's don't really set bounderies or guidelines like they used to. They are more leinent with punishment. Games might give a sense of freedom and relentlessness to your urges (as long as you can recognize that they are not real) but in my experience they don't really teach kids anything.

At the age of 18 a kid can goto a gun store and purchase a gun. He'll undoubtably buy it to feel big and powerful. Without the proper training he will use it and regret it and spend the rest of his days in a prison or institution. Does that tell the NRA something? Somehow I doubt it. It all lies in the upbringing of the youth. If they live a sheltered closed life with violent video games and violent media and news. Yes then they might have something to do with the death rate in the US. While the laws might not be harsh enough as they could be, there might be more power with exercising these laws. Maybe even adjusting the age to purchase guns to 21. As for the black market. I will leave that for another post.

Dan

[Bigjakkstaffa]

Ignorant people kill people.

Not a fair comment methinks.

Some of the most 'insane' killers out there are actually some of the most sensical ppl ever to walk the earth. They see the world for what it is and not the sugar coated BS the media stuff down our throats. These people are acting out against the ignorance and wide eyed ignorance of the masses who are unaware of the perversion that is occuring in the world.

However this is scary to those who control society and for those of us so hopelessly on the sugar coated facade we live, that we mask it with the term 'insane' to make us feel safe about the ultimatley shallow little existence we lead and enable us to push all thoughts of empathy for these 'insane ppl' to the back of our mind.

Put simply we are a society hooked helplessly on a drug, that drug being lies. Those who challenge our dependancy to this drug are deemed by our 'pushers' if you will as unnaceptable or abnormal to divert us from trying to break away from our addiction

This is not to say killing ppl is right, that is the extreme end to this need to display to show the truth. I cannot emphasise how wrong their methods are, however in many cases of such people the ideology is sound, but they do not have the capacity to use it constructively so they sadly use it destructively to make an impact :(

--Jakk:t

[tking]

Originally posted by Bronco2Guy
GTA 3, Mafia, Unreal, Counter-Strike, DOOM, Quake you name it they all served a purpose to entertain and humor us.

And there in lies my dilemma. I'm a big fan of FPS's and I enjoy team orientated online frag fests as much as anyone. Here's the thing: when I play Quake or URT or Doom I feel like the realism is found in the physics and graphics, not the setting - the violence is real, the setting doesn't even try to be. The fictional nature of the game makes the violence acceptable. These games advocate violence as an imaginary act.

When I play a Rainbow 6, RTCW or another war based game it is based on reality, but the violence is appropriate to the setting. The game advocates violence during war, which is a reasonable thing to do.

GTA3 is advocating violence in a street setting. Beating whores, killing innocent bystanders and glorifying criminal violence is quite a bit different from defending your country or killing purely fictional, evil monsters in a fantastic setting.

I think all humans have a violent urge and I have no problem exercising that urge, but if you do it in a game that blurs where it is appropriate you're only making it harder for the simpletons who have trouble telling the difference in the first place.

[Bigjakkstaffa]

From that link i think Mafia should probably be dissmissed. Mafia quite simply is not a game, it is an interactive piece of cinematic art.it transcends the lefvel of the game. It has an 'art' feel to it and could have been the brain child of Copella or Scorcese. Admittedly it is violent, but never gratuitously so, there are no gibs or chainsaw decapitations. Here violence is an aide to th story and not the other way around, a rarity in gaming.

As for the remaining games i can see where the point is coming from , but again i feel it is basically because of the ignorant and widely stupid nature of wider society tha we are having to interperate these games this way, simply because many people do not have the intellect to look beyond the violence or in most cases even WANT to look beyond it

--Jakk:t

[Oolie]

When I first played GTA1 a few years back I was amazed. Never before could you do what you could do in that game: wander around, doing whatever you pleased, no time limits, you only had to do missions if you wanted to, etc.

OK, so let's get back to the purpose of Video Games: Entertainment.
And one of the most common qualities of video games: in them, you do things you never could/would do in real life (at least, not without dire consequences).

I like GTA3. I think it's fun, though after a while simply running around wasting everybody in sight does get boring. But one of the whole points of video games and why they're entertaining is that in them you do things that you can't do in real life. I mean, many of us wish we could fly or had special powers, or could transform or do other awesome things that video game characters do, but we can't. And we realize that. Video games are just a compromise; what you want to do but can't do, you can do (though often unrealisitically) in a video game. Most of them are so far-out that you would never think of somebody actually trying to do what they do in video games in real life.

Enough said.

I've got some heads to bust open.