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Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Understanding `puter power supplies


Bovon
03-13-2001, 10:29 AM
Hi guys and gals. I have been reading a lot at many different forums now for about two months, trying to get a handle on which mainboard will be my next upgrade for AMD processors.

After reading many threads, and corresponding with a few ppl that seem to have more problems than most, I have come to a possible conclusion that many of the troubles may be power supply filter troubles.

My credentials. 40 years plus in industrial electronics with trade school / job training.

When converting from AC (alternating current) to DC (direct current) there will be a certain amount of AC ripple or hum left over in the DC output. some ripple is acceptable if filtered very good, and kept at some predetermined limits.

As with anything we buy today, we get what we pay for. Just because a computer power supply says it is a 300 or 400 watt supply, isn't enough. It absolutely must be filtered as good as possible. The cheaper supplies for the most part will not have the higher degree of filtering. Many times they will just get by. AC hum can, and will cause all sorts of problems in a computer. Too much, and it won't even post. bare minimum hum can cause crashes. Just because a power supply is an approved supply found at your mobo or processor site dosn't mean it is a good one.. it simply means it passed some degree of tests...maybe on the low end of their limits. Some of these that passed the tests may be assembled with cheap components that will not last long.

We tend to pay out of the gazoo to get the mainboard we want and the processor & ram...then skimp on the case and power supply. It can be a reasonable conclusion that the power supply is one of, or perhaps the most important part of the system. If the supply fails, so does everything else.

It works like this. When converting from AC to DC is called rectification. The filtering process within the supply can take out almost all of the residual AC component, called 'hum'. As with anything, the filtering can get expensive...these parts cost money...and the ppl that make them must compete with others, so they sometimes manufacture supplies with cheaper parts. Usually, the more expensive supplies will be made better and have the best (or much better) components to filter with.

One simple test to determine if your computer supply is generating 'noise or hum' is by placing an old AM type of radio near the computer. Tune the radio to an unused frequency. (no stations coming in) if you hear hum...this is being generated in the computer supply. You may hear a small amount of hum (ideally you should hear none). If you have no problems, you are probably ok...again...no hum is best. This is just a quick and easy way to test, but does not take in all possibilites. The computer case can diminish the hum from getting outside of the case, so..just because you don't hear any him with the case on, dosn't mean there is none there. Also, this is not the best test. Only instruments can detect the amount of hum, and tell the technician if it is acceptable or not.

On an old machine I used a few years back, I was loosing internet connections every few minutes. One day, I just happened to turn my radio from FM to AM, and here was all this hum. I knew right away what the problem was. I replaced the power supply, and my disconnects went away...

Bottom line. Be sure you don't try to save money on a cheap computer power supply. The problems that can and will crop up are hard to find, and the operating system won't tell you what is wrong, AND...the computer techs at the shops or mobo / processor company won't have a clue...they are not trained electronic technicians.

And yes, I knew I would forget something. When a power supply is loaded down to near its power limits, the current drag from the supply will be too much for the filters, and hum will then creep into the system. The more load, the more raw AC that will be present in the DC output...

Hmmm... I think that covers it, Any questions, I will try to answer, but understand I can't see / test your system

[This message has been edited by Bovon (edited 03-13-2001).]

spuck
03-13-2001, 11:33 AM
u answered my questoin.ive been using a puter power supply for a mobil cb till my base gets fixed.wondered why it always humed.

DanU
03-13-2001, 02:53 PM
Bovon, you are SOOOO right. I've been burned many times by cheap power supplies. I've lost several hard drives and mobos that were fried by power supplies that couldn't properly regulate their output voltage. The filters you talk about use electrolytic capacitors. As they age, the electrolyte dries up and *POOF* their goes your filtering and possibly your computer as well. Cheap supplies tend to use smaller, lower quality caps. They work great for the first few months but then they start failing.

Cheap power supplies are easy to spot. They often weight far less than quality power supplies. I replaced a generic 300W supply with an Antec 300W supply for my duron system. The antec was considerably heavier. Looking inside, I could see that the antec had bigger, beefier components to handle the power. After changing the power supply, my computer crashed far less often. That's proof enough for me.

daverme
03-13-2001, 03:29 PM
Good job, Bovon !!!!!

howste
03-13-2001, 03:33 PM
Thanks for the good info Bovon. I'll be getting the old radio out tonight I guess...

ZENYO
03-15-2001, 03:44 PM
Nicely Done, Thanx for the info...

So, does anybody have any preffered power supplies? How do you know which ones are made with junk parts and which ones are built to last?

Bovon
03-15-2001, 06:45 PM
Hi Zenyo...I can't say for certain any particular one. I suspect that the better P/Ss will cost in the neighborhood of $50 to $75 bucks for a 300 watter...maybe even more. Here are two that I have read in various forums that the guys say are very good...but, who knows what is 'very good'?. I have just ordered a full tower that has an Antec psu in it, I have read that this is a good H/D supply. Other good psu's are: PowerMax, PCPC, and I had another on my mind but can't pull it up now. What I can do is, look at some PSU reviews and repost.

DanU
03-15-2001, 07:20 PM
The Caddillac of power supplies is the turbo-cool series from PC Power and Cooling. They're supposed to be ultra-reliable but they're also pretty expensive and some say they are noisy. For the noise-conscious, PPC&C also makes a "silencer" series.

I use a 300W Antec for my Duron system and a 250W Sparkle for my sister's K6-2 system. Both are fairly quiet and haven't given me any trouble. The 300W antec cost me $54 and the 250W sparkle cost me $29. Both are on AMD's approved list.

Bovon
03-15-2001, 09:14 PM
I did a little looking around, and found the following page that lists some of the better brands, and prices.

http://www.directron.com/powersupplies.html

desmocat
03-15-2001, 09:26 PM
Hey Bovon,your post reminded me of something..
I had to get the mobo swapped out in a box that I bought when I first got into computers. I bought a 266 PII and when they replaced the board, they forgot to set the cpu jumpers and when it booted, it showed to be a 233. To verify, I got my handheld scanner beside the case with the cover off and tuned to 233 Mhz,no noise.
Ran the freq up to 266 and started opening/closing programs,and heard it growling. I guess you could still do it nowadays, my scanner goes up to 1.3 Ghz so I'm still good for a while. I think when I get off in the morning, I'll see if I can "hear" my 750 T-bird. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif

Bovon
03-16-2001, 12:19 AM
desmocat, Hey man...thats pretty cool. Maybe you can hear your cpu talking to you. What you recon it has to say?...HEY MAN...I'm hot!!!...turn up the A/C in here... http://www.sysopt.com/forum/biggrin.gif

Hum, or 'noise' in a DC supply will be in the very low frequency range, like maybe 60 cycles...or 120...the first harmonic of 60. It also could be some higher because these supplies use what is known as switching transistors, and the frequency of the transistors change when the load on the supply changes...this is part of the regulation circuit. The higher we go, listening for noise, it gets weaker...as what we hear are the harmonics. All AC type wave forms generate what is known as harmonics. The first harmonic of 60 cycles is 120 cycles, the seconed is 180 cycles. third is 240 cycles...and so on. The harmonics are generated from the fundamental frequency...if you have ever driven by an old AM radio station, and tuned up the band, you can hear that same station on other frequencies up band. These are harmonics of the fundamental or, main frequency. When we listen for noise generated from a rectified DC system, and some of the AC component is still left over in the output of the supply, we can hear that in an old AM radio, usually tuned to the low end of the band...where some of the fundamental harmonic is still strong enough to be recieved. By the time we listen way up band...in the mhz band range...the harmonics are usually so weak by now, that they can't be heard with out sentivive recievers. Usually an old AM radio, tuned back and forth over the low end of the band will hear any harmonic of any AC noise being generated from the the supply.

By the way, anybody that has some electronic background, like replacing some resistors, capacitors...or other components on a circuit board, can upgrade a computer power supply. The main thing would be the two large filter capacitors in it, and change out the two switching transistors for a heaver duty type. You would have to be able to determine the type of transistor, and get a HD type that will interchange with the original. I have repaired several that were dead and given to me. While I was at it, I upgraded them to handle more power.

Bovon
03-16-2001, 12:30 AM
Okedoke guys, glad what little expertiese I have is helpfull to some. I, all too well understand cost of putting together a good system, and I have also bought low end cases and supplies. It goes with the game...we attempt to get the high end processors and mobos, ect...then the cash has run out, so we use cheap cases or supplies, or reuse an older case/supply that in all likelyhood has had its better days. Then, when crashes occur with the new system, it can be very diffucult to determine why. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Bovon (edited 03-21-2001).]