UCITA, the Uniform Computer Information Transactions Act, has been passed! For those of you who do not know about UCITA, this is a *VERY* bad thing! Check out this link:
These links describe the horror of UCITA better than I can. I urge you to spend a few minutes of your time to take a look. You may think that I'm being paranoid, (and I'm forced to agree with you http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif) but you must agree at least, that software licencing has taken a definate turn for the worst.
Dominus
[This message has been edited by Dominus (edited 07-29-99).]
socalgal
07-29-1999, 09:49 PM
This is very bad news. 43 states voted for this bill. Big Brother is upon us.
An excerpt of what this WILL do.
The UCITA deregulates product licensing and covers software, multimedia interactive products, data and databases, and the Internet and online information. It further allows vendors to disable software remotely as a means for repossessing products; makes shrinkwrap licensing terms more enforceable; prevents license transfers from one party to another without vendor approval; outlaws reverse engineering; and lets vendors disclaim warranties.
skywalker[TSG]
07-29-1999, 10:03 PM
****ing peice of **** this is not good why why do they do things like this
CMonster
07-29-1999, 10:07 PM
linux! Linux! LINUX! LINUX! long live LINUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now you know what was at stake!
CMonster
07-29-1999, 10:09 PM
We will boycot those that disable software remotely (most likely Microsoft)...whatever happened tot he right to privacy..rest assured that programs blocking big brother will be widespread!!
[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 07-29-99).]
Dominus
07-29-1999, 10:24 PM
heh, nice comment CMonster, but Linux will get reamed if this passes. UCITA makes ALL Reverse Engineering (RE) illegal, which means that NO NEW drivers, emulators, or multiplatform fileservers (like SAMBA) are allowed to be made, which means that Linux will be either completely obsolete or illegal by the time this bill gets ratified. I LOVE the idea of Linux, but Open Source Software (OSS) cannot survive UCITA. All emulators are illegal after UCITA as well. Basiccally, the big software corporations just paid off a bunch of polititians so that they could destroy all free OSS competitors & gain an iron grasp of the consumers. M$ can hold your entire business at ransom if they care to using the "Self Help" clause, and theres not even a **** thing you can do. Can't even switch to another OS, because UCITA basically makes them all illegal.
Now do you see why I avoided the P!!!? It's PSN gives M$ a target so that they can make sure that they "Self Help" the right victim.
And after all this, you aren't even allowed to complain. Complaining about software is prohibited by UCITA, as well as stating any bad points in software reviews.
Heres another link that shows how UCITA will affect the Average Joe:
You really should try to do something about this. It's not even my country, but if the U.S. puts up with it, then other countries will be forced to comply due to your enormous financial pressure & the fact that their businesses will suffer if they don't use top-of-the-line U.S. software.
"One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler
[This message has been edited by Dominus (edited 07-30-99).]
CMonster
07-29-1999, 10:37 PM
Dominus,
1st please make your links " www.yourlink.net " active.
2nd many device manufacturers/vendors are writting drivers for Linux now because they see tremendous potential there..
many software vendors are, or are considering, porting applications to Linux.
I am confident that we will survive this just as the world seems to survive every totalitarian reich...
[This message has been edited by CMonster (edited 07-29-99).]
Dominus
07-29-1999, 10:46 PM
But will that tremendous potential remain after UCITA? When Samba is illegal? When mounting FAT16, FAT32 & NTFS filesystems is illegal?
Personally, I'd rather not have to survive this "totalitarian reich", I'd rather it if it simply never took place.
(Links are now active)
[This message has been edited by Dominus (edited 07-30-99).]
gradius
07-30-1999, 12:42 AM
Oh, that's just great.
Well, I better go and get me some programming tutorials while I can and start writing my own O/S and software from now on.
It's really sad to see how much the $ governs everything.
MAGIC 8-BALL and THE ELF
07-30-1999, 01:03 AM
Every time something like this happened on my world, The Lrrknz found what you might call a 'work-around'. - 8-Ball
The Internet is a privately established frontier of freedom. No governmental (or other) entity's attempt to impose constraint or regulation shall prevail. - Elf
socalgal
07-30-1999, 10:35 AM
Companies have the the right to protect theirs. But remotely disabling for "self-help"? Vendor approval to transfer? gimme a break!!!
It's just that M$ and other big$ co's. do have such underhanded methods and deep pockets. What's to prevent them now from inserting/using any kind of "snooping" device into their progs (maybe it's already inserted and we don't know - and just now needs to be "activated" - if it isn't already) in order to "gather evidence" to build a case. If the code is already there in anticipation of such a thing like UCITA passing then all they need do is "turn it on" and sit back and let the fun begin at our expense.
The PSN toubles me even more so now. Even tho my PSN software disabler is
always turned on, so what? I'm sure they scoff at such flimsy attempts to
stay incognito. Before using Lockdown2000 who knows how long anyone has been accessing my computer without my knowledge? How do I know it's still not happening - nothing is foolproof - either by Big$ or hackers? I don't trust M$ - or anyone really - do you?
Dominus'side-by-side comparison of quotes by M$ and Hitler chilled the heat right
out of me. Dominus doesn't even live here - and look how hard he's been following this case. He sure seems worried for someone it won't affect - yet.
This is esp. terrible in that it's ONLY the first step! Give em an inch. Things will only get worse for everyone who uses software.
I really am speaking without a full grasp of the implications of this law. It still needs, apparently, to be ratified to be in effect. But once something like this is so overwhelmingly passed - it's pretty much a done deal.
Every app pretty much is written for Windows. If we are to switch OS's, will we be left crippled by lack of mfr/vendor for apps that support these platforms? And the mfrs of the software - won't they also include their BigBro tactics to include the other OS's?
whew - I know so many questions. It would seem that many people dont even know about this passing. I didn't know it had passed, except for Dominus' post.
Will a mainboard that disables PSN in the BIOS be enough? I fear not.
This is sure to raise alot of hackles. Mine are.
Oh, and this includes the Internet and online too. What ??? Insert a cookie -
it's already done, down even into our precious registries. HOW to stop
that? Hopefully someone out there is busy at this moment coming out with a
new proggie to stop such intrusion. I wonder how much they will be charging
for freedom? I bet the farm it won't be cheap.
Another note (!) What about bios flashes for motherboards?? my Abit has a
flash for the PSN. So, if I use a later flash for something, this PSN flash
will be included in the latest flash rendering. Do I have to buy a new
motherboard every time I want to flash?? <g>
Yeps, back the mobo reviews.
Intel is not doing anything to change the PSN on their latest CPUs. AHHHHHH
Big Bro
Bleeding Edge
07-30-1999, 11:11 AM
My thoughts and heart is positioned in 8-Ball's and ELF's camp...
Dominus
07-30-1999, 11:14 AM
Great post, socalgal! I wish everyone understood this issue like you. It's needless to say that I'm never going to buy another Intel or Microsoft product again, and I'll encourage all those who I do odd computer jobs for to do the same.
Thanks for the great reply.
Decklord
07-30-1999, 11:23 AM
Group like us should work togheter to stop these intrusion in our private life. We should join our fources against this virtual Hitler.
Nathan Gleit
07-30-1999, 02:00 PM
Uh.. most applications,operating systems and products(not just computer related) in use today are the result of some type of reverse engineering!!(ask 3M,Xerox etc.)
I am ashamed to say i am uninformed on this UCITA .
I am really discouaged reading about this! After i am more informed, i will write my local reps about this.
Thanks for opening my eyes.
Nathan G.
jokostel
07-30-1999, 11:57 PM
right on dominus & socalgal......
zskillz
07-31-1999, 12:39 AM
sorry for the ignorance, but what is PSN?? and on another note... it seems to me that things like this are ust feeble attempts to stop the inevitable... that being that most people will not pay for a good portion of the software that they actually use. l33t hackers will find ways around all of these things not becaue they are interested in getting paed for it, but just becaues they are the type of people who take great insult from somthing like this and will do everything they are capable of to undermine the tyrannical government laws such as this one. Back in the day, the hegemony could control things because the populus was ignorant, but now it's different. Intelligence breeds dissatisfaction more easily than a lack thereof.
Dominus
07-31-1999, 12:55 AM
The PSN stands for the Processor Serial Number that Intel has on it's Pentium 3 and Mobile Pentium 2 CPUs. It allows unmistakeable identification of your computer over networks and phonelines. Intel has agreed to let it be "Soft Switchable" via BIOS, but many exploits have arisen to get the PSN without the users knowledge even if it is "Switched off"
Vendors such as AMD, Cyrix, ALPHA & IDT do not use these PSNs.
Nathan
07-31-1999, 01:03 AM
What a really big mess. This is going to become a real nighmare. Here they put out crappy software in many cases, yet we are not protected when we have trouble getting it to work on our machines. I can just see right now a whole network of 200 to 1000 users go down because M$ decided to shutoff the operating system or the like. One part of me understands why they ratified it. But what about the time when M$ or another company decides to shutoff the software in error when the customer is compliant and owns it legally? Or if you don't register it? And when you call, they can't find that you paid for it and insist you need to pay for the software again and a fine? This could very well shutdown companies and make them close up for good. And 100,000's of thousands of people will lose their jobs over it, if not more. And to make matters worse, what happens when you can't shut this feature off and it will shutdown the CPU because you overclock it? Or if you have a glitch in the software and it activates shutting down the whole motherboard?
OH well...this will impact the computer industry very hard.
socalgal
07-31-1999, 01:13 AM
The cube.icestorm link was very informative Dominus, thanks for that. In the same vein, (and regarding Roy's reply under Platoon918's Motherboards topic) I am wondering if a mainboard, such as the board Roy has - the MS-61763 v.2 - is enough of a solution to disable the PSN - or is the BIOS considered a software solution?
from that cube link:
(INTEL says:} The ability of the processor hardware to turn off the feature so the serial number cannot be read...
(Discussion follows)
This isn't entirely accurate. As I discuss on another page, this is actually a software switch, and not a hardware switch. Further, when the PC is rebooted, the PSN is temporarily enabled, even if the user thinks it isn't. Only when the PC's BIOS setting (or the Windows control utility) is loaded will the PSN be disabled, and only then for the remainder of the session. When the PC is rebooted, the PSN is again (at least temporarily) enabled. This provides a window of time in which a program (for example, a virus) could conceivably read the PSN and store it for later, nefarious use.
My question: Do you think the motherboard's BIOS feature is a hardware solution? Or is it still granting the PSN that window of opportunity?
I hope I'm not straying off topic. I plan to do some research when I get the time and find out what orgs are fighting this.
~~Edit: Good points all, Nathan!
[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 07-31-99).]
Zonker
07-31-1999, 03:33 AM
Thinking... if I had PSN disabled in bios, the only thing that might make it obtainable would be a boot sector virus.
But even then, the BIOS loads before it seeks the hard drive.
Of course, you really can't tell if the BIOS utility does it's trick, can you? Who do you trust or fear more. The BIOS/motherboard manufacturers or "BIG Brother".
Intel will use the most elaborate doublespeak to promote and defend this feature. Even to mislead, perhaps....
It is valuable in closed business networks. and a definite invasion of privacy on an open public network... IMO
Dominus
07-31-1999, 10:13 AM
I'm not sure off hand, but I heard cDc (Cult of the Dead Cow, makers of Back Orrifice) had some exploit to remotely read the PSN _even if_ you had it "soft Switched" off in BIOS. And since cDc has taken to open sourcing it's exploits, there's still a risk of having it read. Not entirely sure on this, but I'll look into it & keep you posted. Thanks for all the replies so far.
Mr. Administrator, this thread by it's nature seems to generate long-winded replies. Just let me know if it gets time to start a part 2.
[This message has been edited by Dominus (edited 07-31-99).]
socalgal
07-31-1999, 10:51 AM
Microsoft told the New York Times Saturday 3/6 that ``it would modify a feature of its Windows 98 operating system that has been quietly used to create a vast data base of personal information about computer users.'' News reports: [BBC] [Wired] [CNN] [SJ Merc] [ZD Net] [ZD Net]
heil Gates! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
I just heard from a good source that an Intel rep will be visiting my local Fry's in Woodland Hills today. Hmm, I think I'll take a trot over there and see if he squirms at my questions. Will come back with a report from an IntelInsider!
Dominus
07-31-1999, 10:55 AM
Hehehe
Stick it to the Man, socalgal!!!
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
Anyone try out that P!!! exploit I posted? I want to know if it really works or not.
Bleeding Edge
07-31-1999, 11:04 AM
I wish I could see that!
Isn’t CMonster in your area? Get him to go too. Maybe other people here, that live in your area, in will be there. Bombard the Rep from all sides! I’m confident in your ability to make people squirm. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif I’d hate to be an Intel rep this day…
~edit
Don't be over confident. Time your questions. Size up your enemy well. You won't know their oily abilities to side-skirt the issues.
Good luck Trooper.
[This message has been edited by Bleeding Edge (edited 07-31-99).]
socalgal
07-31-1999, 11:37 AM
Dominus ~ As I already have Java and ActiveX along w/cookies disabled, I haven't. (It's a pain in the buttzinski always clicking the pop-ups but oh well..!) If I get some time I'll let you know the results.
I am feverishly scribbling out a list of questions I will use relating to many of your links' printouts.
Edge ~ emails are out for the backup. Thanks for the covert operations tips http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
EDIT: Does anyone have any questions they would like me to pose to Mr. IntelInsider?
[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 07-31-99).]
socalgal
07-31-1999, 05:43 PM
Guess what? Mr. IntelInsider is a no show. I just got back from Fry's. Intel was supposed to be there to promo the release of the PIII 600 but he never showed up. The manager even showed me an ad in the newspaper saying he would be there from 1pm-5pm. Fry's buyers aren't too happy either.
The ad says Sat. & Sun., so I will try again tomorrow.
DavidX
07-31-1999, 07:59 PM
He must have got word you'd be there, socalgal! He's probably scared ****less! http://www.sysopt.com/forum/wink.gif
PS: I posted a topic with a URL to this thread on the HOST Club BBS. I figured the more people discussing this issue, the better.
[This message has been edited by DavidX (edited 07-31-99).]
Dominus
07-31-1999, 08:28 PM
Thanks DavidX, I think spreading the word around is an excellent idea. Please post links to this topic wherever you think you should. I believe we've turned a few people off Intel, or at least opened some eyes and ears to the subject.
Pentium, Schmentium - I WANT MY ALPHA!!!!
http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
socalgal
07-31-1999, 08:40 PM
DavidX ~ Great! I should've posted there, and I'm glad you did.
I also heard that they didn't show up at the Burbank Fry's either!! K7 is beginning to look better and better...
Why did Intel have to do this??? I loved their cpu's. But now they've ruined them. And now UCITA makes everything stink. http://www.sysopt.com/forum/frown.gif
[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 07-31-99).]
DavidX
07-31-1999, 08:54 PM
Unfortunately, in the real world, it probably won't have much effect on Intel's sales. I get the strong feeling that only a comparative handful of true computer enthusiasts are fully aware of the issues. Even if that 'handful' amounts to several thousand, that's just a grain of sand compared to the literally millions of everyday computer users who couldn't care less about the finer points of computing. They'll happily continue to use both Intel and Microsoft simply because that's what nearly everyone else is using. Them's the facts and there's not really a lot we can do about it. But we can try . . . If this thing really gets enough publicity, who knows?
Nathan
07-31-1999, 10:18 PM
You may be right on that. But when M$ or the other software companies start turning off the programs or users start to get letters threatening lawsuits because the company says they are using their software illegally, that would wake up some more users.
chuckiechan
08-01-1999, 12:18 AM
Ask him why Intel thinks it is such a good idea. If he is a typical sales rep (Like me) he won't be able to shut him self up. Open ended, non-threatening questions will get you more info.
Long live AMD!!!
skywalker[TSG]
08-01-1999, 12:26 AM
hmm this law is illegal in sweden we have a new law that makes it illegal for someone to store and puplish any information about me and what i do with my time
this includes if my name social security number and it even forbidds people to write my name on the internet so i wonder what M$ will do about this maybe finnaly i wont see another M$ software again but what about intel there is one thing i dont get can they see if i have overclocked my cpu and shut it off for good via my IP number or what i dont get it... well i think if we all stand up to this they wont go thrue with it...
KillerBug
08-01-1999, 12:39 AM
Ok, I do know these things:
1st: They cannot shut you down if it means significant 3rd party loses, but who decides what is significant? M$? To bill gates, $1,000,000 is not significant.
2nd: They will start up a new ponny express, it takes 16 days to go anywhere, and software venders will use that to nodify you.
3rd: They will write 900 page license agrements, somewhere in there in little, little print at about page 850 will be something to the effect of, "Instalation, use, or purhase of this software violates all licences or warantees."
Anyway, when I buy a CD it is mine to do with as I please. If I want to rip my copy of WIN 98 apart in a decompiler to take out half of my blue screens of death, then I can, as long as I do not sell a copy to anyone, and I do not sell my orriginal copy and keep it on my computer. Hell, if I make windows 2000 (If I do not just get the new linux) 100% error free, then maybee the better thing for M$ to do would be to keep it active, and buy it off me. What if a program was much like the one some programer is looking for illigal copies of, he sees the first 15 lines are the same in the setup.exe file, and he kills it on me? And how would you determine if it is an orriginal, or if you took it off someone? Perhapse by those little card they include that require you to fill out 2 pages of **** and use a stamp, and for the week till it gets there, and the month while it sits in a bin, you are unregistered? Perhapse an interneal serial #? Perhapse you put it on more than 1 machine, but only use it on one at a time? What if you are using more than 1 internet connection, it looks like 2 of the same software, the p3 serial # would not work, not everyone has a P3. No way am I gona buy shrink-wrapped software if it goes through in FLA. Why does M$ need more protection, their software is already dieing all the time, although that software demo for WIN98 did show a feature, those beutefull blue screens with white lettering. They are not responsibe if they include viruses? that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! That means they could simply include a virus to stop your system from starting, that loads the first time you slide in a CD? How about your motherboards maker, they send you a new update to bios, and all of a sudden your video does not work? Not their fault! Also, how can any contract that is not legaly sealed, and signed by both parties be binding? By the way, has anyone tried going back to the store saying, "I do not agree to the contract"? I did, the person behind the counter said she did not know what I was talking about and that they do not take back opened items unless they are defective. By the way, the product was Micro**** office. I guess this stuff also applies to software that gives you an 80 page screen that basicly says, "If you do not do what we say is ok, click cancel and be out of $40!" Where is there something with a list of congress men and governer phone #s, email adresses, etc...? I am going to contact my governer, how about you? Mayor? Yup, the city of Tampa is no small place. How do I contact Bill? By the way, why the hell does anyone other than the software makers want this? Is there anything in there for the consumer? Thanks for letting me vent. I am out of town for about 1 more week, but when I get back into town I will test that out on my P3 with the # disabled. Ok, I like that idea of confronting the Intel guy at Fryed Electronics, But how about this: there is a kid that lives near my house, he is almost as much of a computer nerd as me, he can get a pacage on the air about this (a pacage is a 90 second - 5 minute peice, like on the news), I will give him the scanner, or the game, or whatever he wants to do it, perhapse someone here can write a good setup? Perhapse someone else can get tapes on the air in a place other than Tampa, FL? Oh, and as for the whole Linux thing, Linux is not decompiled, it comes with the full source code on the oficial CDs. I am just about trembling right now, between the boiling rage, and fear of what could be next. The difference between Bill and Adolf? Adolf killed and persecuted just about everyone who did not meat the descriptions of perfect, Bill persecutes everyone, but if he has them killed, then they will not buy the software. This thing is getting longer than that conversation on unlocking your CPU.
[This message has been edited by KillerBug (edited 08-01-99).]
socalgal
08-01-1999, 04:24 PM
KillerBug ~ I think getting the word out on this to the masses is essential. I was thinking of calling a news station tomorrow to see just what kind of media attention this could get.
I feel your anger and I also feel it's justified. I think it's important to channel anger so it is used constructively.
The more exposure on this, the better.
btw, I think you got it right - Fryed Electronics lol that's a good one http://www.sysopt.com/forum/smile.gif
[This message has been edited by socalgal (edited 08-01-99).]
Dominus
08-01-1999, 05:02 PM
I believe it's time for Part II. You modem users must be waiting forever for this thread to load. Perhaps this'll make it a bit easier.
Anyone wanting to post an opinion on this should read this thread, then go to Part 2 at