danee
09-20-2002, 05:44 AM
Euthanasia..
Does the 'right to live' entail a 'right to die' ?
Does the 'right to live' entail a 'right to die' ?
Click to See Complete Forum and Search --> : Euthanasia - the Big question.
NJEnviroguy
09-20-2002, 08:42 AM
You did't happen to see the repeat of Third Watch two nights ago?
AllGamer
09-20-2002, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by danee
Euthanasia..
Does the 'right to live' entail a 'right to die' ?
hmm........
that reminds me of this other saying
"To Live is To Die" :rolleyes: sad irony of life :x
Euthanasia..
Does the 'right to live' entail a 'right to die' ?
hmm........
that reminds me of this other saying
"To Live is To Die" :rolleyes: sad irony of life :x
Tick
09-20-2002, 09:25 AM
Pro life, Pro Choice, Pro NRA, Democratic, Republican, Libral, Right Wing, Left Wing, Chevy, Ford,Dodge,Toyota,Nissan,Intel, AMD. White, Black, Red,Yello,Rap,Country,Rock,Army,Navy,Air Force,MCdonalds,Burger King,Arbys,Mac,Snap On,DSL,Cable,56k!
Lifes full of choices! Make one and stand with it!
IMO!
Tick
Lifes full of choices! Make one and stand with it!
IMO!
Tick
NJEnviroguy
09-20-2002, 11:40 AM
This philosophy probably has a lot of holes to it: If the people with the dilema are the ones wanting it, it doesn't make sense for anyone else to make a decision for them.
leprechaun_40
09-20-2002, 11:53 AM
Firstly, it's a very personal thing.
Second, as a Cancer survivor, let me say this, I watched my step mom die of the same kind of cancer I had, (lymphoma). It was slow, painful and not very dignified. It drained the family finacially and mentally. I would not want to go through that myself, 6 months to die is a long time, and I don't feel that I would want to be in such condition for that long. Just get it overwith, it's going to happen anyhow, so let me go in a dignified way and not be remembered for the sick, pain-riddled lump in a bed, remember me as a loving, caring person.
As for others, yes, I think those that are going to die, painfully and slowly should be allowed to chose to end it sooner, why make them suffer??? You don't let your family pets suffer, you have them put to sleep, right??? We call that humane, but do it for a person, it's murder?? Where are our prioritys here?? No, we'd rather keep someone alive, in pain, misery and wishing to die because we are selfish, we don't want them to go. That sucks!!! If my cancer had proved to be untreatable, I'd not have waited for it to kill me, believe that, I'd have found a way to end it much sooner, why??? Because, it's going to happen anyhow, and I don't like the idea of suffering that's why?? Would you??
Second, as a Cancer survivor, let me say this, I watched my step mom die of the same kind of cancer I had, (lymphoma). It was slow, painful and not very dignified. It drained the family finacially and mentally. I would not want to go through that myself, 6 months to die is a long time, and I don't feel that I would want to be in such condition for that long. Just get it overwith, it's going to happen anyhow, so let me go in a dignified way and not be remembered for the sick, pain-riddled lump in a bed, remember me as a loving, caring person.
As for others, yes, I think those that are going to die, painfully and slowly should be allowed to chose to end it sooner, why make them suffer??? You don't let your family pets suffer, you have them put to sleep, right??? We call that humane, but do it for a person, it's murder?? Where are our prioritys here?? No, we'd rather keep someone alive, in pain, misery and wishing to die because we are selfish, we don't want them to go. That sucks!!! If my cancer had proved to be untreatable, I'd not have waited for it to kill me, believe that, I'd have found a way to end it much sooner, why??? Because, it's going to happen anyhow, and I don't like the idea of suffering that's why?? Would you??
Monster1
09-21-2002, 04:45 AM
God pulls the plug, not us
IMHO
When I was young (8 ,I think) my parents were told that I have a turmor the size of an adults fist. They said that I would die or be a veg before the age of 10.it was right behing my eyes and therfore inopable (at the time).
well, it just went away in about a year.. I call it devine intervention , some of my friends call it luck.. but what ever
God pulls the plug, not us
IMHO
IMHO
When I was young (8 ,I think) my parents were told that I have a turmor the size of an adults fist. They said that I would die or be a veg before the age of 10.it was right behing my eyes and therfore inopable (at the time).
well, it just went away in about a year.. I call it devine intervention , some of my friends call it luck.. but what ever
God pulls the plug, not us
IMHO
TARP2
09-21-2002, 08:01 AM
I don't want to confront you on a religious sense, but when god pulled the plug on a friend, it cost her 23 months of pain, and us a lifetime of loss.
I'm glad you survived and peace to you.
Tarp
I'm glad you survived and peace to you.
Tarp
COLN
09-22-2002, 06:56 PM
I refuse to make that decision for anyone else but I know my choice. I don't suffer being a total vegetarian for nothing. I refuse to have a stroke and not be able to control my end. I have in the past made sure no one interfered with the choice being made by a patient I was volunteering with but they made the choice and they had to carry it through. It was my choice just to be there in case they changed their mind or even if they didn't And if my nasty, extremely noisy neighbor doesn't straighten up, I'll have my relatives save my ashes until he paints his house A large fan ought to do it! ;)
bonz_dragon
09-23-2002, 12:46 AM
My greatest fear is losing ALL rights to choose. Either though all the nannywatch groups or by gov't intervention because they do not believe WE are smart enough to decide our own activities or fates. " They KNOW what's good for us".
The right to DIE or Choose is a very individual "ACT" and to me only the person making that decision know what's in their heart. They are the ones which have to live or die with that "ACT", explain it to loved ones.
All I ask is to allow me to make those decisions for myself!
This is from someone who's just gone though 2 cardiac procedures in 2 wks and 4 in 2 yrs. I want to live but I don't want to suffer either.
The right to DIE or Choose is a very individual "ACT" and to me only the person making that decision know what's in their heart. They are the ones which have to live or die with that "ACT", explain it to loved ones.
All I ask is to allow me to make those decisions for myself!
This is from someone who's just gone though 2 cardiac procedures in 2 wks and 4 in 2 yrs. I want to live but I don't want to suffer either.
danee
09-23-2002, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by bonz_dragon
My greatest fear is losing ALL rights to choose. Either though all the nannywatch groups or by gov't intervention because they do not believe WE are smart enough to decide our own activities or fates. " They KNOW what's good for us".
The right to DIE or Choose is a very individual "ACT" and to me only the person making that decision know what's in their heart. They are the ones which have to live or die with that "ACT", explain it to loved ones.
All I ask is to allow me to make those decisions for myself!
This is from someone who's just gone though 2 cardiac procedures in 2 wks and 4 in 2 yrs. I want to live but I don't want to suffer either.
so well said bonz_dragon that i had to quote this.
We are all individuals, and these decisions can only be made by us, at a time, when we feel it is applicable to us.
And go figure the law in Australia.. suicide is legal (and that was only changed in the last 10 odd years), but assisted suicide is not.
In simple, the law see's it as: 'if you cant kill yourself, then you cant die. You'll just have to suffer instead.'
My greatest fear is losing ALL rights to choose. Either though all the nannywatch groups or by gov't intervention because they do not believe WE are smart enough to decide our own activities or fates. " They KNOW what's good for us".
The right to DIE or Choose is a very individual "ACT" and to me only the person making that decision know what's in their heart. They are the ones which have to live or die with that "ACT", explain it to loved ones.
All I ask is to allow me to make those decisions for myself!
This is from someone who's just gone though 2 cardiac procedures in 2 wks and 4 in 2 yrs. I want to live but I don't want to suffer either.
so well said bonz_dragon that i had to quote this.
We are all individuals, and these decisions can only be made by us, at a time, when we feel it is applicable to us.
And go figure the law in Australia.. suicide is legal (and that was only changed in the last 10 odd years), but assisted suicide is not.
In simple, the law see's it as: 'if you cant kill yourself, then you cant die. You'll just have to suffer instead.'
bonz_dragon
09-24-2002, 01:06 AM
At this point I've been asked many times these past weeks about having a "Living Will" and have put much thought into it but as of yet am still undecided!
I do know that I would not want to be kept on a ventalator in a vegatative state.
I do know that I would not want to be kept on a ventalator in a vegatative state.
wallie_x
09-24-2002, 12:31 PM
"...in the end what you don't surrender, well the world just strips away." Bruce Springsteen "Human Touch"
I am a registered nurse. I've seen more people die in a year than most of you will see in a life time. The word euthanasia is a misnomer. It's a euphemism - an existential distortion of reality. Just as 'pro-choice' attempts to mask the reality that a human life will be destroyed if one chooses abortion, 'eu'-thanasia masks the finality and process of dying. Its realy nothing more than an attempt to glorify suicide.
Medical futility. Now thats an issue that receives little attention. Because physicians fear litigation so much, they rarely approach their patients with the idea: We've done all we can. It's time to accept that and move on. Hospice is what comes next.
What happens mostly though, is the family who won't let mom, dad, sis or brother go. They want every possible thing done. Even in the face of obvious death, many family members refuse to let a natural course of life take place. And mommy or daddy, sis brother, not wanting to hurt their loved ones cling, to the bitter end the frail thread of life they have left. There is no death with dignity-only a bitter struggle to extend existence at all costs.
Isn't euthanasia the same? Death is death, we can't change that. But euthanasia cheapens it. Its nothing more than a secular attempt to glorify suicide. Death with dignity is more in line with the ideations of hospice. But few want to accept the fact of death, and when they do, some (very few) want the quick way - suicide a.k.a euthanasia.
I am a registered nurse. I've seen more people die in a year than most of you will see in a life time. The word euthanasia is a misnomer. It's a euphemism - an existential distortion of reality. Just as 'pro-choice' attempts to mask the reality that a human life will be destroyed if one chooses abortion, 'eu'-thanasia masks the finality and process of dying. Its realy nothing more than an attempt to glorify suicide.
Medical futility. Now thats an issue that receives little attention. Because physicians fear litigation so much, they rarely approach their patients with the idea: We've done all we can. It's time to accept that and move on. Hospice is what comes next.
What happens mostly though, is the family who won't let mom, dad, sis or brother go. They want every possible thing done. Even in the face of obvious death, many family members refuse to let a natural course of life take place. And mommy or daddy, sis brother, not wanting to hurt their loved ones cling, to the bitter end the frail thread of life they have left. There is no death with dignity-only a bitter struggle to extend existence at all costs.
Isn't euthanasia the same? Death is death, we can't change that. But euthanasia cheapens it. Its nothing more than a secular attempt to glorify suicide. Death with dignity is more in line with the ideations of hospice. But few want to accept the fact of death, and when they do, some (very few) want the quick way - suicide a.k.a euthanasia.
leprechaun_40
09-24-2002, 04:28 PM
I bet you'd be thinking different if you were looking at 6 months in pain on a morphene drip, just waiting to die, my stepmom did that and I personally wouldn't want to, never.
Have you ever put a family pet to sleep because it was dying? Same thing, end the misery for family and the dying one.
I think it's selfish to make someone live in pain and misery because YOU don't want to let them go. They are going anyhow, why make it miserable for them and make them suffer needlessly???
Have you ever put a family pet to sleep because it was dying? Same thing, end the misery for family and the dying one.
I think it's selfish to make someone live in pain and misery because YOU don't want to let them go. They are going anyhow, why make it miserable for them and make them suffer needlessly???
wallie_x
09-24-2002, 05:08 PM
I bet you'd be thinking different if you were looking at 6 months in pain on a morphene drip
Please focus on the entire context of my message. Have you ever thought that things are the way they are in nature for a reason? Its the athiests and agnostics who have such a bitter time with death - I've witnessed it first hand. Its the people who have developed faith and spirituality over their life time who die with grace. And I mean the people who are very spiritual, not the quasi ones. I watched an athiest die once and it was the most empty experience I 've ever had. Having a fatal disease prepares some people for death, and it allows the family time to adjust. Things are not just arbitrary in nature; they are there for a distinct purpose. When ever humankind attempts to alter the context of reality to suite his own existential ends, there has been dire consequences, communism is one of the more blatant examples, euthanasia may be another.
Please focus on the entire context of my message. Have you ever thought that things are the way they are in nature for a reason? Its the athiests and agnostics who have such a bitter time with death - I've witnessed it first hand. Its the people who have developed faith and spirituality over their life time who die with grace. And I mean the people who are very spiritual, not the quasi ones. I watched an athiest die once and it was the most empty experience I 've ever had. Having a fatal disease prepares some people for death, and it allows the family time to adjust. Things are not just arbitrary in nature; they are there for a distinct purpose. When ever humankind attempts to alter the context of reality to suite his own existential ends, there has been dire consequences, communism is one of the more blatant examples, euthanasia may be another.
leprechaun_40
09-24-2002, 10:04 PM
I did focus on your text, and I'm an atheist also,, but dying slowly of cancer, I wouldn't consider it graceful, ever.
My stepmom was a christian and it still sucked, for her and her family. Not because she didn't believe, but because it was painful and undignified!! I don't think any God would make us suffer just because, so no, I don't agree with you one bit. That's not what a Loving God would do in my opinion.
As for me,, I know death is inevitable, but it doesn't mean I want to suffer for 6 months just to appease some God. I will chose my time and place if I can, not let my family go broke keeping me alive like some vegetable and draining the money to pay some doctor to do so.
My stepmom was a christian and it still sucked, for her and her family. Not because she didn't believe, but because it was painful and undignified!! I don't think any God would make us suffer just because, so no, I don't agree with you one bit. That's not what a Loving God would do in my opinion.
As for me,, I know death is inevitable, but it doesn't mean I want to suffer for 6 months just to appease some God. I will chose my time and place if I can, not let my family go broke keeping me alive like some vegetable and draining the money to pay some doctor to do so.
wallie_x
09-24-2002, 11:02 PM
but it doesn't mean I want to suffer for 6 months just to appease some God.
Who ever implied suffering appeases God? That is fallacy. Equally, by your own volition your statements imply that only you wish to be the god who determines your destiny. Since when is a rendezvous with cancer inevitable in your case? You could fall, crack your head and die of a cerebral hemorrhage tomorrow. Which also makes the idea of self determination somewhat a fallacy as well.
Hospice’s focus in on life not death. Its primal thrust is to optimize quality - not quantity; and tries to assure that what time a person has left is as pain free as possible. Suicide, a.k.a. euthanasia is a self-centered if not cowards way out of life. If a person is in so much pain then it is the MD's fault. No one should have to live in pain, we have morphine. Also, it is partly a person's own disposition that dictates how they respond, not only to pain, but to life’s other challenges as well.
Suffering is a part of life. We can never alter that fact. I believe euthanasia will further cheapen the value of human life, which has already suffered terribly at the hands of liberals and atheists like yourself.
Who ever implied suffering appeases God? That is fallacy. Equally, by your own volition your statements imply that only you wish to be the god who determines your destiny. Since when is a rendezvous with cancer inevitable in your case? You could fall, crack your head and die of a cerebral hemorrhage tomorrow. Which also makes the idea of self determination somewhat a fallacy as well.
Hospice’s focus in on life not death. Its primal thrust is to optimize quality - not quantity; and tries to assure that what time a person has left is as pain free as possible. Suicide, a.k.a. euthanasia is a self-centered if not cowards way out of life. If a person is in so much pain then it is the MD's fault. No one should have to live in pain, we have morphine. Also, it is partly a person's own disposition that dictates how they respond, not only to pain, but to life’s other challenges as well.
Suffering is a part of life. We can never alter that fact. I believe euthanasia will further cheapen the value of human life, which has already suffered terribly at the hands of liberals and atheists like yourself.
bonz_dragon
09-25-2002, 12:15 AM
I don't want to turn this into a religious debate as that only becomes futile.
Having come to face my own mortality a number of times these past 2 yrs I have contemplated my own demise and the effect it will have on my family. As of yet no one has lived forever! At 48 yrs. of age I cetainly am not ready to die but one day it WILL happen. I have already had a taste of the grieving my family will experience and I understand the loss they will feel. This saddens me greatly! This feeling is hard to explain. I have seen the tears of loved ones.
Back to it, I guess I will have to discuss this with my MD's that when they get to that point that "We've done all we can" then "tell me!" Don't put me though unreachable hope or this procedure and that to boost their own ego or morale goal. Yes I believe in quality not quantity
So is refusing treatment in a terminal case giving up and a cowards way out? I've been on a morphine drip and there isn't much quality there for me. Just in and out of reality.
Having come to face my own mortality a number of times these past 2 yrs I have contemplated my own demise and the effect it will have on my family. As of yet no one has lived forever! At 48 yrs. of age I cetainly am not ready to die but one day it WILL happen. I have already had a taste of the grieving my family will experience and I understand the loss they will feel. This saddens me greatly! This feeling is hard to explain. I have seen the tears of loved ones.
Back to it, I guess I will have to discuss this with my MD's that when they get to that point that "We've done all we can" then "tell me!" Don't put me though unreachable hope or this procedure and that to boost their own ego or morale goal. Yes I believe in quality not quantity
So is refusing treatment in a terminal case giving up and a cowards way out? I've been on a morphine drip and there isn't much quality there for me. Just in and out of reality.
wallie_x
09-25-2002, 01:51 AM
So is refusing treatment in a terminal case giving up and a cowards way out?
No. I would never say that.
Suicide is a way out that has terrible implications for the loved ones who are left behind. When you feel pain the people who love you feel pain too. Would you want them to share equally in your suicide? But that's what you’re doing when you contemplate euthanasia. Thinking only of one's self and not involving the people they are intimately connected to. That’s the part I consider cowardly.
Like I said, MD’s rarely mentions the idea of medical futility. I've seen it over and over, what I would consider the needless prolongation of treatment to people who don't even know who they are anymore. The doctors don't witness the suffering, I do. They are there for a few minutes. I'm there all shift, 8 hrs, day after day until the end.
Medical futility is stopping curative treatment and shifting completely toward comfort measures only; no I.V.'s, no antibiotics - no stopping death - comfort. The sad thing is that even though a patient may have advanced directives (which state the patients wishes in the event of that person can no longer speak for their self) little daughter or son, who does not what to let mommy or daddy go, forces the MD to treat under threat of litigation. It's a mess.
There are other very effective pain meds besides morphine with fewer side effects.
If I were you I would look into my states laws concerning 'Advanced Directives" and also appoint a person I trust to "Durable Power of Attorney".
No. I would never say that.
Suicide is a way out that has terrible implications for the loved ones who are left behind. When you feel pain the people who love you feel pain too. Would you want them to share equally in your suicide? But that's what you’re doing when you contemplate euthanasia. Thinking only of one's self and not involving the people they are intimately connected to. That’s the part I consider cowardly.
Like I said, MD’s rarely mentions the idea of medical futility. I've seen it over and over, what I would consider the needless prolongation of treatment to people who don't even know who they are anymore. The doctors don't witness the suffering, I do. They are there for a few minutes. I'm there all shift, 8 hrs, day after day until the end.
Medical futility is stopping curative treatment and shifting completely toward comfort measures only; no I.V.'s, no antibiotics - no stopping death - comfort. The sad thing is that even though a patient may have advanced directives (which state the patients wishes in the event of that person can no longer speak for their self) little daughter or son, who does not what to let mommy or daddy go, forces the MD to treat under threat of litigation. It's a mess.
There are other very effective pain meds besides morphine with fewer side effects.
If I were you I would look into my states laws concerning 'Advanced Directives" and also appoint a person I trust to "Durable Power of Attorney".
leprechaun_40
09-25-2002, 12:43 PM
I don't wish to debate this any further. I stated my opinion to which I'm entitled. You then started with name calling (coward) and blame shifting ( athiests and communism). I am not cowardly, or to blame for so many problems.
You seem to be fanatical in your beliefs and no matter what I say, I'm wrong.
I only stated in my first post that this is a very personal thing. Meaning it should be up to the individual. If you've ever had a pet put to sleep, you too could be a coward, because you used euthanasia to end it's suffering.
Thank you Bonz-Dragon for a supporting view.
I am unsubscribing from this thread, as it has become a religious debate and I don't wish to debate that in this forum.
You seem to be fanatical in your beliefs and no matter what I say, I'm wrong.
I only stated in my first post that this is a very personal thing. Meaning it should be up to the individual. If you've ever had a pet put to sleep, you too could be a coward, because you used euthanasia to end it's suffering.
Thank you Bonz-Dragon for a supporting view.
I am unsubscribing from this thread, as it has become a religious debate and I don't wish to debate that in this forum.
wallie_x
09-25-2002, 01:15 PM
You seem to be fanatical in your beliefs and no matter what I say, I'm wrong.
That's not true. I'm just asking people to debate with sound logic and reasoning. Why did you take general statements as being implied to you personally? I said suicide has cowardly aspects to it, not that you are one.
Jeez...sensitive, I just don't let people get away with fallacious reasoning. And many of our current societies ills can be traced to sociopolitical perspectives, which have altered societies view of reality and subsequently it morals, especially those pertaining to the value and meaning of human life. If you don't think we've regressed in that area then you’re in the minority. And mostly this regression can be traced to 'fanatical' interest groups, especially the secular leftist ones. (The Moslem fundamentalists being the exception - of course.)
More over, if one engages in spirited debate, one can expect a bloody nose once in a while. I see nothing wrong with my style of argument.
That's not true. I'm just asking people to debate with sound logic and reasoning. Why did you take general statements as being implied to you personally? I said suicide has cowardly aspects to it, not that you are one.
Jeez...sensitive, I just don't let people get away with fallacious reasoning. And many of our current societies ills can be traced to sociopolitical perspectives, which have altered societies view of reality and subsequently it morals, especially those pertaining to the value and meaning of human life. If you don't think we've regressed in that area then you’re in the minority. And mostly this regression can be traced to 'fanatical' interest groups, especially the secular leftist ones. (The Moslem fundamentalists being the exception - of course.)
More over, if one engages in spirited debate, one can expect a bloody nose once in a while. I see nothing wrong with my style of argument.
bonz_dragon
09-25-2002, 10:27 PM
Just a few points more on this subject.
1. My wife and I have started discussions on what my beliefs and wises are and what her thoughts and feeling about those ideals that I have. hopefully we come to an agreement before hand.
2. I have known 3 persons who have commited suicide, one was a best friend. I can appreciate his reasoning as he had suffered with a long term drug addiction. Been in and out of rehab on 4 different occasions and his mental state had deteriorated. In short he hung himself in his garage on a sunday morning. I personally thought it would be by OD.
3. The value of life. What I find hard to understand is the genocide we see in our cities amoung young people. How they can justify the killing of other innocent people in the name of gang revenge or activities.
1. My wife and I have started discussions on what my beliefs and wises are and what her thoughts and feeling about those ideals that I have. hopefully we come to an agreement before hand.
2. I have known 3 persons who have commited suicide, one was a best friend. I can appreciate his reasoning as he had suffered with a long term drug addiction. Been in and out of rehab on 4 different occasions and his mental state had deteriorated. In short he hung himself in his garage on a sunday morning. I personally thought it would be by OD.
3. The value of life. What I find hard to understand is the genocide we see in our cities amoung young people. How they can justify the killing of other innocent people in the name of gang revenge or activities.
wallie_x
09-26-2002, 01:38 AM
The value of life. What I find hard to understand is the genocide we see in our cities amoung young people. How they can justify the killing of other innocent people in the name of gang revenge or activities.
I am equally repulsed by the callousness toward human life that has permeated the social morals of our society. That is why I am speaking out against it. I have a four year old daughter and I cringe at the world she will live in. Somebody has to say, "Enough Madness!!" Freedom does not mean anything goes. We are spiritual beings who are polluting our children with false empty (if not homicidal) values. You reap what you sow, and we are beginning to reap in earnest!
I am glad you and your wife are opening up to how you feel about a terrible, but real part of your relationship. May God give you peace and understanding - and may you become closer in this adversity.
I am equally repulsed by the callousness toward human life that has permeated the social morals of our society. That is why I am speaking out against it. I have a four year old daughter and I cringe at the world she will live in. Somebody has to say, "Enough Madness!!" Freedom does not mean anything goes. We are spiritual beings who are polluting our children with false empty (if not homicidal) values. You reap what you sow, and we are beginning to reap in earnest!
I am glad you and your wife are opening up to how you feel about a terrible, but real part of your relationship. May God give you peace and understanding - and may you become closer in this adversity.
Optimus Prime
09-26-2002, 01:19 PM
what is wrong with communism? have you actually read the book about it? just because a certain crazed Russian leader did stupid things and said it was in the name of communism doesn't mean it was.
And i believe that euthanasia should be allowed. I am not athiest, but i do not believe in religion either, it sounds strange but its not.
i would rather see one of my loved ones die fast and painless than slow of painful. Just imagine what it feels like to be hooked up to a machine as a vegetable, living out the rest of your days left. What is the point? What will it accomplish? NOTHING. You (Wallie_X) say it is selfish/cowardly to take your own life because of a terminally ill disease. But I say it is more selfish/cowardly to let your family member suffer in pain.
I agree with leprechaun_40
And i believe that euthanasia should be allowed. I am not athiest, but i do not believe in religion either, it sounds strange but its not.
i would rather see one of my loved ones die fast and painless than slow of painful. Just imagine what it feels like to be hooked up to a machine as a vegetable, living out the rest of your days left. What is the point? What will it accomplish? NOTHING. You (Wallie_X) say it is selfish/cowardly to take your own life because of a terminally ill disease. But I say it is more selfish/cowardly to let your family member suffer in pain.
I agree with leprechaun_40
danee
09-26-2002, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by Optimus Prime
what is wrong with communism? have you actually read the book about it? just because a certain crazed Russian leader did stupid things and said it was in the name of communism doesn't mean it was.
"The book", and which book in particular is that ? There's many books based on Communism. But if your partly attracted to Communism, then i suggest Marxism, Neo-Marxism & Leninism.
Personally, i dont find the idea of communism totally attractive in this day and age.
And i believe that euthanasia should be allowed. I am not athiest, but i do not believe in religion either, it sounds strange but its not.
Well if your not an athiest, and you dont believe in organised religion - then your Agnostic. By defenition, an athiest is someone who denounces the name of God.[\B]
[B]
i would rather see one of my loved ones die fast and painless than slow of painful. Just imagine what it feels like to be hooked up to a machine as a vegetable, living out the rest of your days left. What is the point? What will it accomplish? NOTHING. You (Wallie_X) say it is selfish/cowardly to take your own life because of a terminally ill disease. But I say it is more selfish/cowardly to let your family member suffer in pain.
I agree with you on this Optimus...
the idea thast a person, who's been on life support for 10yrs - is legally blind & deaf - is being 'selfish' in their wish to pursue Euthanasia, is absolute c**p.
The act of the family members who wouldnt support this act, are the ones being selfish, and only thinking about themselves, and not the quality of life of the person in question.
what is wrong with communism? have you actually read the book about it? just because a certain crazed Russian leader did stupid things and said it was in the name of communism doesn't mean it was.
"The book", and which book in particular is that ? There's many books based on Communism. But if your partly attracted to Communism, then i suggest Marxism, Neo-Marxism & Leninism.
Personally, i dont find the idea of communism totally attractive in this day and age.
And i believe that euthanasia should be allowed. I am not athiest, but i do not believe in religion either, it sounds strange but its not.
Well if your not an athiest, and you dont believe in organised religion - then your Agnostic. By defenition, an athiest is someone who denounces the name of God.[\B]
[B]
i would rather see one of my loved ones die fast and painless than slow of painful. Just imagine what it feels like to be hooked up to a machine as a vegetable, living out the rest of your days left. What is the point? What will it accomplish? NOTHING. You (Wallie_X) say it is selfish/cowardly to take your own life because of a terminally ill disease. But I say it is more selfish/cowardly to let your family member suffer in pain.
I agree with you on this Optimus...
the idea thast a person, who's been on life support for 10yrs - is legally blind & deaf - is being 'selfish' in their wish to pursue Euthanasia, is absolute c**p.
The act of the family members who wouldnt support this act, are the ones being selfish, and only thinking about themselves, and not the quality of life of the person in question.
Monster1
09-26-2002, 11:29 PM
been on life support for 10yrs - is legally blind & deaf .
I seriously dought that that has ever happend.
Also, I would like to bring to the table, the fact that ,the Netherlands have had assisted suicide for many years now. in the first 3 yrs. SUICIDE rose like 32%..
I personally think there is a link between the two
I figures from above are from like 5 yrs ago. so dont shoot me if their not exact;)
I seriously dought that that has ever happend.
Also, I would like to bring to the table, the fact that ,the Netherlands have had assisted suicide for many years now. in the first 3 yrs. SUICIDE rose like 32%..
I personally think there is a link between the two
I figures from above are from like 5 yrs ago. so dont shoot me if their not exact;)
Monster1
09-26-2002, 11:34 PM
"Enough Madness!!" Freedom does not mean anything goes
Tell that to the A.C.L.U.
All Criminal Love Us
cant forget about our caring liberals;)
Tell that to the A.C.L.U.
All Criminal Love Us
cant forget about our caring liberals;)
wallie_x
09-27-2002, 01:27 AM
Optimus Prime sez:
But I say it is more selfish/cowardly to let your family member suffer in pain
You don't even know the first thing about that. How many people have you watched die? I not only nurse the dying - I also nurse their families. Committing suicide prematurely would hurt them much greater than any 'pain' they would experience watching their loved one 'suffer'. I am referring more to the spiritual reality of death, but to any atheist, or agnostic, life means 'physical' so how can I explain to you something you don't have the slightest idea about (spirituality).
Please don't quote me so badly out of context. That is not debating that is pushing propaganda. I said it was cowardly to opt out of life because you don't like what 'Life' you may have - diseased or otherwise. As a registered nurse I've seen plenty of needless suffering by the equally unnecessary prolongation of treatment. Read what I'm saying, don't filter it just because you disagree with me. There are aspects of suicide that are cowardly; euthanasia is a form of suicide and has the potential for great abuse. Its root morality is based on secular ethics that cheapen life even further.
There is nothing wrong by choosing not to take treatment. Killing yourself because you believe you cannot endure the pain is presumptuous. You are actually killing yourself because of fear, not reality. If the pain is that great then it is the MD's fault. I've seen a lot of people die, and it’s like in the song 'The Rose': "It's the soul afraid of dying, that never learns to live."
Pain is part of life, we can never change that. But I will not cheapen its value for the sake of the few who wish to end theirs prematurely. If they want to commit suicide then let them. Give them a copy of that book from ther Hemlock Society, but in no way legalize it.
But I say it is more selfish/cowardly to let your family member suffer in pain
You don't even know the first thing about that. How many people have you watched die? I not only nurse the dying - I also nurse their families. Committing suicide prematurely would hurt them much greater than any 'pain' they would experience watching their loved one 'suffer'. I am referring more to the spiritual reality of death, but to any atheist, or agnostic, life means 'physical' so how can I explain to you something you don't have the slightest idea about (spirituality).
Please don't quote me so badly out of context. That is not debating that is pushing propaganda. I said it was cowardly to opt out of life because you don't like what 'Life' you may have - diseased or otherwise. As a registered nurse I've seen plenty of needless suffering by the equally unnecessary prolongation of treatment. Read what I'm saying, don't filter it just because you disagree with me. There are aspects of suicide that are cowardly; euthanasia is a form of suicide and has the potential for great abuse. Its root morality is based on secular ethics that cheapen life even further.
There is nothing wrong by choosing not to take treatment. Killing yourself because you believe you cannot endure the pain is presumptuous. You are actually killing yourself because of fear, not reality. If the pain is that great then it is the MD's fault. I've seen a lot of people die, and it’s like in the song 'The Rose': "It's the soul afraid of dying, that never learns to live."
Pain is part of life, we can never change that. But I will not cheapen its value for the sake of the few who wish to end theirs prematurely. If they want to commit suicide then let them. Give them a copy of that book from ther Hemlock Society, but in no way legalize it.
Optimus Prime
09-27-2002, 11:12 AM
You say that athiests/agnostics that life means physical, not spiritual. Is this saying you know for a fact that spiritiual life (after you are dead) exists? No, you don't know this, nobody knows this, and i am agnostic, as danee just told me... which is true, agnostics dont disbelieve in spiritual life, we dont know whether it exists or not. I cannot get over the fact that you think you know spiritual life exists, you don't know, you hope for. And hope is possibly the worst sort of pain, apart from 'not knowing' that you can experience... mentally of course.
I do not know what it is like to see a family member suffer in pain do i?
you think you know me? you think you knew my grand dad? no, you did not, and i advise you to take that comment back right now you ignorant pig.
I do not know what it is like to see a family member suffer in pain do i?
you think you know me? you think you knew my grand dad? no, you did not, and i advise you to take that comment back right now you ignorant pig.
Optimus Prime
09-27-2002, 11:14 AM
Also, Danee, i only thought there was only one book based on Communism, written about the guy that 'invented' Communism.
wallie_x
09-27-2002, 11:33 AM
what is wrong with communism?
Not very well thought out. First, show me one instance where communism has been successful? It hasn't, as a fact it has been nothing more than a repressive dismal failure. Why? Because of an existential reality: atheistic based governments have no arbiter over them to evoke sanction. In the case of communism, the state becomes the sole arbiter of power over life and death. However, this has been without standard rules governing individual rights and with no set standard of morality. The state has supreme authority, which often exterminates life for the sake of protecting the state. Secular communism has no such governing rules of sociality, as do Judeo-Christian based societies. Morality is based on the whims of a spiritually unregenerated person (such as Stalin). This gives fuel to the statement, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
In short, secular based communism will never achieve its goal of a workers utopia. Its has always mutated into the state constantly struggling to maintain its power. It has never focused solely one providing for the needs of its people, which was supposed to be its "Prime Directive" in the first place. Why? Human nature, we are spiritual beings. If we deny that fact we will forever suffer the consequence - pain and suffering at the hands of ourselves.
Not very well thought out. First, show me one instance where communism has been successful? It hasn't, as a fact it has been nothing more than a repressive dismal failure. Why? Because of an existential reality: atheistic based governments have no arbiter over them to evoke sanction. In the case of communism, the state becomes the sole arbiter of power over life and death. However, this has been without standard rules governing individual rights and with no set standard of morality. The state has supreme authority, which often exterminates life for the sake of protecting the state. Secular communism has no such governing rules of sociality, as do Judeo-Christian based societies. Morality is based on the whims of a spiritually unregenerated person (such as Stalin). This gives fuel to the statement, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."
In short, secular based communism will never achieve its goal of a workers utopia. Its has always mutated into the state constantly struggling to maintain its power. It has never focused solely one providing for the needs of its people, which was supposed to be its "Prime Directive" in the first place. Why? Human nature, we are spiritual beings. If we deny that fact we will forever suffer the consequence - pain and suffering at the hands of ourselves.
Optimus Prime
09-27-2002, 12:15 PM
and your answer is not very well thought out is it? Communism is good in theory, but when you involve the human being, religious or not, the thing goes out of balance...
And i would take Communism over a Dictatorship anyday.
And take back your comment. NOW.
And i would take Communism over a Dictatorship anyday.
And take back your comment. NOW.
wallie_x
09-27-2002, 12:21 PM
and i advise you to take that comment back right now you ignorant pig.
I was a little tired and mad when I wrote that (yes I'm human too). And it was short sighted. All of us have experience with pain and suffering, but some of us more so than others.
Court recorder, strike the statement, "You don't even know the first thing about that." from the record please.
However, I will not apologize for my human frailties.
I will make this statement: we euthanize dogs and cats, not people. Why? Because we are not entirely animals. We are only partly animals, but equally part spiritual beings who love one another, particularly in our families. I am not entirely against the idea of hastening a person’s departure to prevent suffering. What I am against is using a word to alter reality. Euthanasia is a euphemism. But my biggest reason against 'euthanasia' is I wish to see society turn away from its bent on the "Culture of Death" we have here in the US. From what I've seen it’s quite different over in the U.K. You don't have anywhere near the murder rate we do, but that's changing, isn't it? Welcome to the fruits of secularism.
I cannot get over the fact that you think you know spiritual life exists
When I say spiritual, I am not necessarily referring to life after death. A life based on Christianity is a life lived spiritually. Life after death is its reward. No one has ever proven empirically that life after death exists, and I doubt we ever will. However, reality bespeaks of a transcendence beyond it. The problem is that one must open one's self to the implications. If there is a God, then comes the horrible existential dilemma. Eek gads!! I might be held accountable for my actions!! Yes, the dreaded 'R' word: responsible. In my own thought, many hide behind the cloak of agnosticism or atheism to run from this fact, but its just a personal belief.
(geez my spelling stinks, sorry for the continual edits.)
I was a little tired and mad when I wrote that (yes I'm human too). And it was short sighted. All of us have experience with pain and suffering, but some of us more so than others.
Court recorder, strike the statement, "You don't even know the first thing about that." from the record please.
However, I will not apologize for my human frailties.
I will make this statement: we euthanize dogs and cats, not people. Why? Because we are not entirely animals. We are only partly animals, but equally part spiritual beings who love one another, particularly in our families. I am not entirely against the idea of hastening a person’s departure to prevent suffering. What I am against is using a word to alter reality. Euthanasia is a euphemism. But my biggest reason against 'euthanasia' is I wish to see society turn away from its bent on the "Culture of Death" we have here in the US. From what I've seen it’s quite different over in the U.K. You don't have anywhere near the murder rate we do, but that's changing, isn't it? Welcome to the fruits of secularism.
I cannot get over the fact that you think you know spiritual life exists
When I say spiritual, I am not necessarily referring to life after death. A life based on Christianity is a life lived spiritually. Life after death is its reward. No one has ever proven empirically that life after death exists, and I doubt we ever will. However, reality bespeaks of a transcendence beyond it. The problem is that one must open one's self to the implications. If there is a God, then comes the horrible existential dilemma. Eek gads!! I might be held accountable for my actions!! Yes, the dreaded 'R' word: responsible. In my own thought, many hide behind the cloak of agnosticism or atheism to run from this fact, but its just a personal belief.
(geez my spelling stinks, sorry for the continual edits.)
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