Cost Adjusted Comparison of the Athlon and Pentium 4

[mattj2012]

really depends on what purpose im using the system for to consider what processor would be the best.. I say for gamers i would use the athlon and for applications and stablity i would use the pentium.. to bad there isnt a processor that provides both for the common folk, ha ha..

:rolleyes:

[fluffycow]

I don't get it, athlons arnt any less stable than pentiums. Whats the reasoning behind this?

[Giblet Plus!]

Yeah. Why is it always assumed that pentiums are more stable than athlons? You know, the extra money that people spend on pentiums is just paying for those snazzy intel tv commercials. How many AMD ads have you seen lately?

[cheekymonkey]

none cos they're cheapskates . . .cowboy chip builders . . .

[rlbogue]

So for those of you who think AMD are unstable ... who's run one?

[Ruckus]

I've been running an Athlon 1.2 GHz since last year and I've never, EVER had any sort of stability issue. I can't recall a time the system ever did a full lock up on me or gave me some other related problem. I also ran an 800 MHz Athlon for about 6 months last year and that never gave me trouble, either. They're cheaper than Intels and they never give me problems, so I have no intention of switching over.

[mattj2012]

Its obvious that the ones who have run AMD processors have never truely put it to the test. you ask any professional IT person and they will tell you that they run pentiums in their servers and workstations. Every company that i have ever worked for has used mostly Pentium processors. Occassionaly will you see an AMD processor in a server or workstation that uses corportate database programs, and Major OS'es or has to work on a network. AMD is is nice and they do out perform the pentiums in speed but when you take shortcuts you will get that extra boost. AMD is for Gammers and low application personal computers.. Also AMD processors have that core that sticks out like a sore thumb and if you dont know what your doing you could crush the core.. from my 10+ years experience, Pentiums are stable and realiable..

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by mattj2012
Its obvious that the ones who have run AMD processors have never truely put it to the test. you ask any professional IT person and they will tell you that they run pentiums in their servers and workstations.

First, you missed the point of my question completely. I asked if those complaining about AMD reliability had ever run them. Apparently you haven't.

As for what most companies run, most companies ran their networks on Novell 10 years ago, 10 Years before that they were either running on a DEC VAX or an IBM System/36, 10 years before that most companies didn't have computers. So what people have historically done and what they should do are two different things.

With respect to the specific observation about servers, that's not ever been a push for AMD (for any sustained period of time.) AMD correctly realizes that the money is in the workstations -- not the servers no matter how expensive you make them.

As for your "observation" that desktop PCs run Pentiums, I think they are still the majority, but not to the degree that you are giving them credit for.

As for ...
Its obvious that the ones who have run AMD processors have never truely put it to the test.

I'd venture to say that there are people here who've put their AMD to the test more than most corporate IT departments. Speaking personally, I have an AMD Exchange Server/Domain Server/SQL Server that performs fine -- even under sometimes heavy load. My workstation (also AMD) runs DVD video repack for hours on end without a single problem.

Robert Bogue, MCSE, MCSA, A+, Network+, Server+, IT Project+, I-Net+, e-Biz+, CDIA+

[mattj2012]

well i wasnt meaning historically first of all, but you have pointed out some pretty good information about the AMD processors and your ablity to run it off your server, thats great. but like i said, most companies i have worked for have used pentium processors. now as for your average customer , what do they use? and who looks for cost effeciency? well if you buy cheaper you sell cheaper and there you go.. you get for what you pay for. for each IT professional out there who experiences the difference between amd and Pentium, some will say AMD is better or some will say pentium is better.. I am just saying that pentium is a better processor for the money and has a better architecture. If you want to play games, buy an AMD :D

[BipolarBill]

AMD setups have just one major flaw (other than the goofy chipsets that they run on) which needs to be addressed before they will really take off in the enterprise - thermal management and protection.

AMD CPUs run hot and (naturally) require more cooling. This makes use in "blade servers" and racks challenging. They have little or no thermal protection. An AMD CPU that loses it's fan/heatsink for even 5 seconds is deader that raw silicon.

When it comes to servers, the Athlon MP can only be installed in pairs at best. The Pentium is much more scalable. Perhaps further mainboard development will address this shortcoming.

Personally, I like Athlons, but I would not be the one to risk my job by recommending a 15,000 PC purchase of them for Shell Oil.

[mattj2012]

:r Exactly!!! bipolarbill....

[wallie_x]

This thread is supposed to be about DESKTOP PC's not servers. From where I sit the only servers I worry about are those my ISP uses and the other ones hooked to the network. In desktop PC's AMD has classically be preferred because of its more effective cost vs. performance ratio. That's definitely what attracted me. Also, despite its bad thermal protection, the classic Athlon Thunderbirds smoked (not from excessive heat Bipolar Bill) the P3's and especially the P4 Willamette’s in the benchmarks. Another consideration was that early AMD machines were usually built from a conglomeration of varying parts from the Pacific Rim. Who knows what type of nuances the machine would display until it was built. All those different drivers behaved oddly at times. (But it also made [forced] novices to become better at troubleshooting their systems.) Intel had the monopoly, and luxury, of being the only one to furnish chipsets optimized for their CPU's. And they also worked with M$ to optimize there performance with Windows. To my knowledge, AMD had no such luxuries until later in the game. There are so many twists and turns and mitigating variables to this story as to make one's head spin. For me the issue has always been superior price vs. performance, which used to rest solidly in AMD's corner. However, now with the super overclocking abilities of the P4 Northwood (1.8ghz OC'able to 2.4ghz!) the cost vs. performance ratio leaves Intel as a highly considerable alternative, especially now that the Taiwanese chipset makers support the P4. :x :eek: :x

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by BipolarBill
AMD CPUs run hot and (naturally) require more cooling. This makes use in "blade servers" and racks challenging.
Neither Intel or AMD is truly suited for "blade servers" that is really something that Transmeta is better at.

They have little or no thermal protection. An AMD CPU that loses it's fan/heatsink for even 5 seconds is deader that raw silicon.
It's not quite that bad but admittedly they do generate more heat.

When it comes to servers, the Athlon MP can only be installed in pairs at best. The Pentium is much more scalable. Perhaps further mainboard development will address this shortcoming.
Well, again AMD hasn't targeted the Server market. Admittedly they need to work on multi-processor support but it's not been an issue because it's not something that their core market needs. For what it's worth, there's a lot more engineering that has to go into the processor for multiprocessor support than one might think initially.

Personally, I like Athlons, but I would not be the one to risk my job by recommending a 15,000 PC purchase of them for Shell Oil.
Why does recommending Athlons have to "risk your job?" Back to history 15 years ago almost everyone bought IBM because no one wanted to "risk their job" on buying anything else.

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by mattj2012
well if you buy cheaper you sell cheaper and there you go.. you get for what you pay for.
Not always. Does Wal-Mart sell inferior stuff because they sell it cheaper? No, manufacturers can be more efficient than their competitors and sell products at a lower price.

I am just saying that pentium is a better processor for the money and has a better architecture.
It is possible that at the moment Intel has a slightly better processor than AMD, however, that's not really the point. You stated that AMD were unreliable, a claim that you've been unable to support. Now you're going with a price/performance argument. Which is it?

Rob

[Aarmenaa]

Most of the AMDs you see out there aren't in servers-that's true, but not really the point in question. I ran Pentium and Pentium II for years. When it came time to replace my Pentium II machne (I paid handsomely for a 266), I turned to AMD for a cheaper price, and better performance (at the time, I was hearing a lot about AMD beating out Intel), so I got a Thunderbird 1000. It's still the system I use for everything. It's still running at 1000 MHz, and it's only got a Geforce 2 MX400, and it's still got it's original PC133 SDRAM (256 MB). It runs just about everything I throw at it. This includes games, benchmarks, and apps like 3D Studio Max 4. Maybe it's not a great server chip, but it's still got my money the next time I need an upgrade!

-Aarmenaa

PS-I also purchased a Duron 850 a few months after my Thunderbird-it was only 110 bucks-I can't find a celeron for that cheap!

[BipolarBill]

A video is worth a thousand words:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q3/010917/index.html

http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q3/010917/heatvideo-05.html#download_the_first_toms_hardware_test_lab_ video

[BipolarBill]

Support costs for AMD systems is higher. This is one of the reasons that the big PC makers avoid AMD. It's not just the thermal issue - it's the funky chipset drivers which are not folded into the Windows setup. It's chipset compatibility too. It's USB/IDE and graphics issues.

Although I may have time and the inclination to make my AMD system run with a specific hardware arrangement, I wouldn't want to multiply those efforts by hundreds or thousands.

AMD should purchase a chipset maker like SiS and create a working motherboard standard that everyone else can go by.

[Aarmenaa]

AMD should purchase a chipset maker like SiS and create a working motherboard standard that everyone else can go by.
I agree-that would solve a lot of the AMD problems. They also need an agreement with MS to have their drivers included in the OS-newbies don't like to install drivers, even though things like the Via 4in1 are pretty painless now. Just download and keep hitting next until it tells you to restart. Hmmm...computer maintenence is getting kinda boring, huh? Next...next...next...yes...next...install...finsih ...ok...restart. :D

-Aarmenaa

[Beeblequix]

Okay, according to the article:

"...What more can we say? The Athlon XP lost the GHz race, and has lost the performance battle. With the 2200+, it doesn't look like it will win the price-performance war. Price has to come down if AMD wants to preach the price-performance gospel. Until AMD introduces ClawHammer (K8) or Barton at compelling price points, AMD will continue to lose this CPU war. Time to buck up, guys! "

Okay, that's all well and good. I'm happy that Intel has achieved so much in the past couple of years, namely, getting their P4 to finally do what they've been espousing since its conception, and consequent @ss spankings by the ol' T-birds. Gratz to Intel.

As far as our new junior member's comments:
really depends on what purpose im using the system for to consider what processor would be the best.. I say for gamers i would use the athlon and for applications and stablity i would use the pentium.. to bad there isnt a processor that provides both for the common folk, ha ha..

well, there's nothing in present day to support this idea. Reflecting back to the days of AMD imitating Intel's offerings, there were incompatabilities and lockups. But give up that old argument. That hasn't applied to anything released since the K7 classic, when AMD put out their first true non-reverse-engineered cpu. They've made a profound impact on the world with their Athlons and they have industry support. You're referring to "applications" -- which ones don't work? Seriously.

[quote]"..from my 10+ years experience, Pentiums are stable and realiable.."
This point isn't under scrutiny. I'd generally concur. Except there's this dang Pentium 66 sitting over there *gestures in disgust toward one of several old pcs doing its function*. This one is crashing nearly every other day (yes it's always running). (please folks don't post back about this one, as I don't really care about it (the pc, not your opinion:) )

Anyway, I'd have to say that AMDs are also generally stable and reliable. Hey, I've owned both. Any computer will have instablilities. I can view this very room and tell you:

1) the 9672 w VTAM/VSE has its hiccups
2) the RISC based RS/6000s w AIX have their hiccups
3) the P4 I'm using w NT4.0 runs great
4) hiccup *excuse me*
5) the PII 233 I used to run w NT4.0 was a piece of *hiccup*
6) MACs are for commies with hiccups
7) my AthlonXP has run very smoothely since its last dose of bios/driver updates. No hiccups.

Anyway, I'm digressing into bodily functions. Pardon me. I just wanted to present the case that those old 'AMD-cpus-are-unstable" arguments really don't have much of a foundation anymore.

ßeeßle Qµix

[Aarmenaa]

I know exactly what you mean, Beeblequix. This one can't install AOL, this one hates my network, this one just hates me, and this one is pretty good for about 6 months, then it's dead. And then there's my P200MMx that keeps screaming that it be released from it's cell-I haven't gotten much sleep because of that one...:D

-Aarmenaa

PS-I have one computer that has made several attempts on my life-it laughed at me-apparently, I'm an "inferior human." ;)

[Beeblequix]

Aarmenaa,

LOL! You make me laugh.

Hey, where in GA do you live? I spent ~14 months there back in 96-97 in Doraville, Chamblee, Brookhaven, Tucker.

ß.Qµix

[Aarmenaa]

I'm just south of The Bubble (otherwise known as Peachtree City). You know Fayetteville? That's where I am. If you don't remember where that is, it's too small to show up on any map, don't bother to look!

-Aarmenaa

PS-I'm actaully about 50 mins. south of Atlanta. And that *$!% P200 got loose-it ate my car keys! ;)

[wallie_x]

AMD should purchase a chipset maker like SiS and create a working motherboard standard that everyone else can go by.

I don't know; I would tend to think that Sis has more money than AMD these days. But if what I've read is true (Americans have exceedingly short memories) it’s more like AMD and nVidia pairing up to take on Intel. We'll just have to wait and see if the union bares fruit.
As to the heat issue, I recently OC'd my Athlon XP 1600 which runs at 1396mhz stock up to 1503mhz. The temp jump? A whole 6 degrees F. Thought Iwas gonna roast my machine. It usually runs around 114-116F, but OC'ed it was running at 120-122F (big deal) It was the memory that got a little squirrelly at 143mhz FSB, and overall I did not notice any increase in performance except in benchmarks. True the T-Birds do run hot, but the Athlon XP's with their lower core voltage run considerably cooler. And any CPU novice knows that the P4's, new or old, cost a hell of a lot more money to make than any Athlon XP, especially the new T-Breds with their smaller die size. (Which also translates into new heat problems for AMD after they had almost laid to rest the old T-Bird issues.)

At anyrate, who would like to own a machine that is so perfect that you can't tinker with it. That's what tweakin is all about. If we didn't own AMD machines we would be sitting on the couch watching TV more often instead of sitting in our little computer lairs hiding from our wives. :x

[Bullion]

read the link below and tell me what you meant by this startling comment.

http://www.tomshardware.com/technews/technews-20020814.html#1016

When it comes to servers, the Athlon MP can only be installed in pairs at best. The Pentium is much more scalable. Perhaps further mainboard development will address this shortcoming.

[JumpUp]

There is something we are all forgetting...
AMD may have lost the edge as of now, we hope they do regain it in future. But it is because of AMD that we are paying less for our CPUs (both AMD and Intel). Not to mention the dramatic (for want of a better word) increase in performance of our desktop CPUs. :p

We need em both buddies, we need em both... :x

[pandaz3]

I would probably build a Intel machine if I knew what was good for me, but I don't. I don't have the resourses at present to really worry about it. The new AMD XP 2400+ and 2600+ that are supposed to be released on the 21st of August and will change the mix some too. Maybe Intel will improve some more early September and by mid September, I'll return from Las Vegas a richer man, buy the latest and greatest at the time, Probably AMD?:D

[BipolarBill]

Originally posted by Bullion
read the link below and tell me what you meant by this startling comment. Those are separate clustered PCs. Don't try this at home!

[Aarmenaa]

I don't know about you guys, but I don't buy top of the line hardware usually. I wait until something better is out and get the stuff that's on sale. I can't afford to have $100 tacked on to the price just becasuse it's a little faster than yesterdays chip, even if it is the fastest chip on the market. Bottom line: for me, Intel's fastest chip isn't my concern. You don't have to have latest and greatest to get great performance.

-Aarmenaa

[ukulele]

I think the topic of this thread is based on erroneous data from the start. They are comparing the top of the line cpu's from both makers and then making arguments based in cost/performance comparisons. Anyone who is truely interested in building a cheap and fast system is not going to buy the latest and greatest. I needed to upgrade and did extensive shopping around before making a decision. I've been using AMD cpu's in all my upgrades for nearly eight years now precisely because they are, by far, cheaper then Intel cpu's with equal performance. I agonized making the switch to the P4 this time around because of all recent reviews I have read and responses from tech boards like Sysopt. My decision came down to simple math. I could still not justify the huge price/performance differences between the two and after doing my homework there was absolutely no way I was going to win with any decent Intel P4 system. I cycle through computers too fast to waste money on the latest and greatest. I just want fast enough for the current applications. I have built and repaired dozens of intel systems too and have never noticed any performance or reliability improvements over AMD what so ever. It is a myth to suggest that industry uses more Intel systems because they are more stable. Industry uses more Intel chips because of compatability and upgrade issues. Their systems have evolved since the beginning with Intel chips, before AMD was even a concept. I have a good friend who owns my local ISP, a computer shop, and an Island wide network maintenance business. I asked him what he thought about this subject. He told me straight up that the big companies all use Intel exclusively, because A-they they can write off the higher cost and B-they always have, but for the home PC's, he builds, unless specifically requested and at double the price, AMD's the only way to go. I couldn't agree more.

[mattj2012]

rlbogue stated :

"Not always. Does Wal-Mart sell inferior stuff because they sell it cheaper? No, manufacturers can be more efficient than their competitors and sell products at a lower price."

You know Bob, lol ... Have you been to walmart??? they buy the cheapest stuff(inferior) you can buy and sell it cheap.. Even though i shop there i dont expect to buy quality stuff.. Like I said , you get what you pay for.. quality verses cheap is never an option to buy quality.. thats if you can afford it.. Even though, pentiums do charge double what a AMD does. I rather just pay the extra money for longevity and stability. Especially if its going to be the heart of my Computer..
:t

[$1500-P4 gamer]

I own both so I think I can comment here.

First off
"I think the topic of this thread is based on erroneous data from the start. They are comparing the top of the line cpu's from both makers and then making arguments based in cost/performance comparisons. Anyone who is truely interested in building a cheap and fast system is not going to buy the latest and greatest. "

Couldnt agree more. You are sooo right!
By the way my duron 1gig was $40 so price efficiency it has. My P4 wasnt that much either. And it WAY O'clocks. 1.8gig out of a 1.5 with rdram turbo on, but need faster mem to get my 133fsb for 2gig. It'll do it too as my temp only went up like 5F full load from 1.5-1.8gig:D . The duron isnt geting O'clocked. Why? Cause at that price Im happy with what I got and dont wanna screw it up. So bottem line-preference is all. No real dif. in either make, its what you like at this point. Things have balanced out I think.

Stability (in desktop not server) is something not up to the cpu. But the chipset, and the mobo. So AMD is not instable, if anything its the mobo support. And not all of them, there are very good mobo's for the amd, you just have to check them out. Just like a Intel, a AMD on a cheap board will bsod and crash you to death. Its not a cpu thing. Now BP pointed out the temp issue. Thats a cpu thing and I also think AMD has seiously neglected to address this issue. A heatspreader on the XP is a pbvious necesity- only reason for not having one is cutting corners in the production costs. Wouldnt you pay $5. more for that better lower temp.? And a stronger cpu core? Leaving thermal protection up to the mobo co.'s is also a shortcut. That way AMD doesnt spend a dime on it, while they should be the ones heading up the hole operation! Its looking out for the consumer, thermal protection protects your investment. I do feel safer knowing my P4 running 4 days streight or whatever crunching #'s is gonna shutdown or throttle back if the temp goes too high. With AMD you can come home to find the fireman waiting at your door. But I have yet to smoke a AMD cpu-so thats not really a reality for me. Point is that they should have security measures. Remember its your money-protecting that investment is a good thing for sure.
So amd's just as stable as Intel cpu wise. the mobo's should have tighter quality control, but then Intels could use that too.
For me, both are great-leave it at that. Both could improve greatly.:) :t

[Gripsz]

just for all the folks that keep saying, loose yer fan and an amd processor is fried; forget it . i've had a (ashamed to say - Retail) amd cpu 1 ghz that's dropped it's Fan several times. simply wont boot . fix the fan and all is well. something keeps me singing the part was well made.

[Aarmenaa]

I was worried about the heat issiues when I purchased my Thunderbird-I knew it was going to be a hot chip. I had head it would fry quicker than you could blink if you ran it without your fan and heatsink, and messed up your thermal compund. If they're that resiliant, maybe I should consider some overclocking myself!

-Aarmenaa

[BipolarBill]

Don't forget that his is "only" a 1GHz Thunderbird.

[ukulele]

P4 has some very valid points here concerning AMD thermal and shock protection, but I think they had a good reason for designing the chip the way they did. The K62 had an aluminum heat spreader installed on it, and they ran notoriously hot by the time they got to 500 mhz. Air space was a factor. Now I am not a thermal engineer but it is obvious to me that the heat spreader added mass to the chip which would retain more heat then if it was not used. If the heat sink was in direct contact with the ceramic core then the concentration of heat would bleed off faster to the heat sink then if it had a spreader on it in the long haul. If the chip was designed to handle a higher operating temperature then Intel specs allowed, then it could run effeciently at a higher temperature. Any one who expects an AMD chip to run at a lower temperature doesn't understand the concepts involved. :)

[Jimstep]

Cost comparison is a constant research project. The last time I built a system, the difference in cost was pretty vast between an AMD and a Pentium. Nowadays, that gap as closed considerably. I believe that when all is said and done, the costs are pretty close. With the AMD, top-of-the-line cooling is a must. The Pentium needs cooling, but it isn't going to burn up with loss of h/s. But, how many times does a h/s fall off of a motherboard. Never for me.

At the current speeds of these processors, I think we are splitting hairs on performance.

[fluffycow]

Earlier I made a chart of the cost of cpu's and thier performance in 3dmark. intels cpus came up with an average of about 40 marks per dollar, and amd cpus came at an average of about 90. Amd is still the king of performance per dollar, even though intel does currently have faster chips.

[$1500-P4 gamer]

"If the heat sink was in direct contact with the ceramic core then the concentration of heat would bleed off faster to the heat sink then if it had a spreader on it in the long haul."

Not at all. Yes then it was a matter of air space between the core and the spreader but not now. Have you seen the P4 heatspreader deseign. It cools the cpu not makes it hotter. What air space now. Theres none. This is what they do, you see the hole on a P4 spreader just near the corner. Thats not for heat or anything, its a breather hole for when they FILLED it with a thermal compound, electrically nonconductive but really good thermally conductive and hardening. (Kinda like AS ceramic glue)As it hardens the fumes and expansion of the material needs to escape through that hole as it sets up. This alows this to happen without too much pressure on the die. This will also keep the spreader from blowing off when it expands. This stuff is filling in the air gap better than any paste we have will. So what we have is a Larger surface area in direct contact with the core. A almost airless gap between the cpu die and a piece of metal is gonna cary more heat away than what we get with just a hs and a air gap between it and the core.. Intels spreader is also not aluminum either. This is a harder kinda silvery material (dont know what it is). Its like a HS slug right on the die. This has alot to do with how it radiates the heat from the die more effectivly not retains it. The heat will rise some but not alot of it. The HS then must pull the heat into it. The beter the HS the better the result as always. Notice the HUGE HS on a P4 compared to the P3. There is way more heat in the cpu die of a P4 than a P3 yet it has way lower temps. Look at the watts dif.. The P4 uses alot more power (desktops) so therefore is creating more heat, alot more heat. Consider that as proof of effective heat measure and use of the heat spreader. THey have gotten heatspreaders to do what they are suposed to. Help cool not heat it up. Now AMD's techys are some smart cookies. They could do similar, not exactly the same. Heck maybe even find some alloy thats even better for pulling heat off the die. But nothing is nothing. That bair die does bother me. Thats prob. my biggest complaint though, no ther. Heat and heat spreader.:t

[fluffycow]

I think it has to do with thier "the most for your dollar" strategy. Why would they put on a heatspreader if its not required? I think its to keep costs down. A heatspreader does not give performance like a raise in clock speed does. I think if you needed a heatspreader, they would put it on. Maybe wit the faster chips coming out, they will start putting spreaders on. For now though, I don't see a reason to put one on. The athlons die runs fine at over 70 C. Just consdier the fact that having an amd cpu in a room will warm it up a degree as a bonus :)

[BipolarBill]

The heat spreader serves another purpose. It keeps the user from breaking the die through the PCB - a common problem with Athlons and Durons (less so since the advent of the rubber HSF supports.

[Asonic]

I'm on my third AMD chip (and all still work) and i have had more reliability issues with different chipsets than the cpu themselfs.

ie. a buggy cpu was cured by changing the mobo (with different chipsets) but a stable cpu has developed problems after upgrading the mobo

All of my intel based systems (3x 486's and a pentium 90) have given up after a few (3 - 5) years of use.

but the AMD cpu's have been only used for a max of 2 years before upgrading.

[fluffycow]

We still had a an intel 33 mhz processsor up until about a year ago when we threw it out becuase it was useless :). It held out till we got rid of it. We also have a pentium 233 mhz that worked until we took some parts from it, I bet if we replaced the parts it would still work today. I don't think the time they last is a very good argument for eirther company, becuase usually its not the cpu that is the cuase of the failiure.(unless you overclocked). We now have an athlon 1.2 ghz and a p3 667 mhz and they both work fine.

[ukulele]

The heat spreader serves another purpose. It keeps the user from breaking the die through the PCB - a common problem with Athlons and Durons (less so since the advent of the rubber HSF supports.

Could be that is precisely why they also recommend a thermal pad which is thicker then paste. I think that people just don't understand that some chips run hotter then others. I must add that I have absolutely no problem with my XP with stock factory heatsink and thermal pad, and installation took less then a minute. My average temperature is around 50C which is certainly well within the engineered specs. I have no intention of risking damage to my CPU by trying to shave a few degrees off or clocking an already very fast chip over spec. I need this rig to help make me a living, just like my table saw (oops, come to think of it it's overclocked to 5 HP! Open mouth. Insert foot.). :eek: :D

[ukulele]

ie. a buggy cpu was cured by changing the mobo (with different chipsets) but a stable cpu has developed problems after upgrading the mobo

The CPU wasn't buggy. The motherboard was. I never heard of a buggy CPU.

[mattj2012]

As for AMD over heating really isnt a issue if you use the correct heatsink and good heatsink compound.. i use artic silver.. www.articsilver.com.. i use copper heat sinks with microfins also over 60mm .. what you have to watch out for also is that cpu core sticks out like a sore thumb, you mess up and push down to hard you will crush the core. Pentiums of course you would do the same but you dont have to be as carefull.. if you dont have the proper heatsink and heatsink compound then you will have heat problems no matter what cpu you use..

this is a good site for heatsinks :http://www.globalwin.com.tw/cd_html.html

and check this site out too :http://www.pcpowerandcooling.com/

remember the cooler your processor the better it will run :cool:

[Slade54]

Yes, like when they drunk british engineers used their freezer for cooling, and overclocked a 486 to over 200MHz!! Now that is insane.

[wallie_x]

If silicon dies were cheap we'd have no heat problem with any current CPU. The old T-Birds problems were not so much bad engineering, but more so a capitalist reality. Higher production costs mean high priced CPU's. Same with the new T-Breds small die size equals poor heat transfer do to a physiological reality: less actual contact w/HSF to dissipate heat. Why? Silicon wafers cost a lot of money to produce. In order to compete with Goliath, David has had to compromise. So what. AMD CPU's perform very well even better mhz for mhz than Intel.

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by mattj2012
rlbogue stated :
You know Bob, lol ... Have you been to walmart??? they buy the cheapest stuff(inferior) you can buy and sell it cheap.. Even though i shop there i dont expect to buy quality stuff
Funny, in most cases Wal-Mart sells the same brands as other retailers. I'm sure that they purposefully tell their vendors to ship them the inferior stuff -- Not!

I'm sure there are SOME things that Wal-Mart sells that are of lower quality, but my point was that on a brand by brand basis they tend to sell for less -- and nothing about the product has changed. It's the same stuff for less.

Rob

[Beeblequix]

dittos to rlbogue. I was going to refute the less-than-complimentry 'argument' about Wallyworld selling inferior stuff that matthew put up, and Mr. Rob literally took the words out of my mouth regarding the brands and prices found between them and other retailers.

Some folks post in threads, ignore all the stuff they can't refute, and stretch to stamp out a person's good name by attacking Wal-mart. What is this country coming to....

ß.Qµix

ps. hey Slade54, I remember laughing pretty hard over that exact article. I remember they took photos of their lagers, the fridge, needed to clear out the fridge for their K-A cooling system so they, uh, drank the lagers. That was a grand ole link. Don't s'pose you know it off the top o yer head? Post it if you do--it's a riot.

[ukulele]

If silicon dies were cheap we'd have no heat problem with any current CPU

Here we go again. What heat problem are you talking about? You don't have a valid point to make here. AMD chips run hotter. It is not a problem unless you make it a problem. Qualify your arguments. Just what is the problem?

[Strawbs]

I have been thru 6 AMD procs since the 486 x66 in 93/94 and I have: a. never fried one (despite running without HSF)
b. never had one fail to operate in any other way.

Of the performance issues, yes! Intel did have an early lead which AMD surmounted until recently, when Intel regained the lead and may well stay there for sometime to come.

I think the real issues are the cost of individual processor costs (as opposed to batch (per 1000 units) purchasing) and the "David Vs. Goliath" "big brother" factor.

Big Business doesn't know how to housekeep (for an example, see recent financial reports of poor accounting practices) and thus will always go for a name as big as thier own rather than give thier money to a smaller company. They beleive they can afford Intel Processors at any cost. And this attitude drives the cost of the individual chips.

The smaller Individual Builder will always act in a more price concious manner, and will study the price\performance data before deciding which way to lean.

IMO. IMHO Individuals that buy Intels, by ridiculing the AMD brand, may only be trying to protect the integrity of thier more expensive purchase decision. They tend to see zero performance increase in everyday apps\games, they sit and hope to hear of AMD disasters that fail to materialise, and then revert to "old" video clips to try and convince ppl that AMD chips are inferior to thier "double-the-price" Intels. :rolleyes:

There is very nearly NO viable, practicle reason (Video Editing being the POSSIBLE exception) for an Individual to spend the extra money on an Intel chip (BRAGGING RIGHTS EXCLUDED :p ).

Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows this to be a fact, But there will always be those that argue the facts and try to convince other that they weren't mugged when they purchased thier high priced Intel.

Remember! Only the presence of AMD in the market keeps the cost of Intel processors as low ( :eek: )as they are today.

But this is just IMHO. I could be wrong ...Right?

[BipolarBill]

Originally posted by Strawbs
I could be wrong ...Right? Well which is it? :p

I see that no one here has ever lost an AMD CPU. Funny - I fried three of them in one month. It was June of this year. Uke knows the details. Basically, the HSF was not quite seated on the die. Oh - it was clipped and greased, but not quite flat. Result? Two dead Athlon XPs and one dead Duron. Average time to death - 5 seconds. Never made it to POST and system check.

This happened because I changed HSFs while the motherboard was still in the case. I could not see that the tight-fitting Thermalright SK6 was riding up on the socket "step-up". All it needed was a push. I discovered the problem only when the motherboard died too and had to be removed.

That video may be "old", but it's still valid. Until a few makers besides Asus implement the new thermal protection scheme in their motherboards, we'll see more of this.

An Intel CPU would have survived my bone-headed mistake.

[$1500-P4 gamer]

hows this! Heat is a issue. No mobo temp is supposed to go over 95F not any that I have had yet anyways. So having a 15-20c hotter cpu makes that much higher sys temp. The mobo is that much closer to death temp. What is the #1 likely to die part in a sys other than periphials like hdd and cdrom-MOBO. Raising the temp raises the risk. How can YOU say heat doesnt matter. Of course it does wether it within the cpu's limitations or not its still unnecesary heat running into all the other components. Now add 3 more fans and a all copper HSF unit with a HUGE LOUD fan. Yep now its the same temp. Still telling me you wouldnt like to run almost silent at the same temp as P4. Keep kidding yourself. You know if heat is the arguement- you spend $50 less on the cpu, but in turn to keep SYSTEM temp as low as the Intel you now have to add the higher priced HSF $50 or so and several case fans to take that heat out say $15-$20 for good quiet ones. YOur now spending 15-$20 more than the Intel cpu was! But the same temp now. Thats not a budget savings at all. Each has their own niche in the market and their own uses. Thats why both co's still exist. If you think people only buy Intel cause there popular then you are the one who's being fooled! Sure, the dumb masses will always follow the lead, but its the leaders that use their heads! Not little green aliens. AMD has a place in the pc market, same with Intel. Both are great-both need to improve ALOT.:)

[Strawbs]

Bill I love your style and value your replies :-@ , But you said it ...my bone-headed mistake.

:D

[BipolarBill]

You work at the Washinton division of large engineering firm.

Ok, so you're shipping in 10,000 AMD tower PCs and 1% of them are shaken to the point where the HSFs fall off. They won't start and need extensive diagnostics and service.

You move 500 AMD PCs from your old engineering building to a new one and lose 10 of them to thermal failure.

Dust buildup in your floor-standing tower PCs goes unnoticed for months and people are losing data and productivity because of heat buildup until someone figures out the problem.

I won't even mention the bogus chipsets and driver problems.

I work at the LA division of the same company that you do and my Intel PCs have 80% less downtime.

Guess who get's promoted to CIO for the company?

[wallie_x]

"Qualify your arguments"
I thought I did? If silicon wafers were cheap to produce we'd have bigger on die CPU's simply to dissipate heat better. It's one of the reasons Intel chips run cooler. Their much greater on die size means greater area that actually contacts the HSF, which in turn means better heat transfer. However, thats not the only reason they run cooler. AMD's smaller on die size, and so-called heat problem, is much more a compromise because of financial constraints. Calm down there Uke, I'm on your side.

Isn't anybody going to ask me?? My new avatar and location begs the question!!! Village of the Damned!! Where's that?
California, Village of the Damned, same thing. :x

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by Strawbs
There is very nearly NO viable, practicle reason (Video Editing being the POSSIBLE exception) for an Individual to spend the extra money on an Intel chip (BRAGGING RIGHTS EXCLUDED :p ).

I suppose I should mention that AMD has had better floating point performance than Intel for a while and Video Editing is more floating point based than integer based -- at least with most of the more recent CoDecs. Excluding of course, the Intel Indeo codec that was specifically designed to minimize their floating point performance problem...

Rob

[BipolarBill]

Big village!

I remember that movie. It scared the **** out of me back in the '60s.

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by BipolarBill
Guess who get's promoted to CIO for the company?

The guy who didn't spend all of his time worrying about PCs and was worrying about the strategic role of IT in his business. :)

You've made some interesting guesses at failure rates. Got any data to back that up?

Rob

[Strawbs]

Originally posted by BipolarBill
You work at the Washinton division of large engineering firm.

Ok, so you're shipping in 10,000 AMD tower PCs and 1% of them are shaken to the point where the HSFs fall off. They won't start and need extensive diagnostics and service.

You move 500 AMD PCs from your old engineering building to a new one and lose 10 of them to thermal failure.

Dust buildup in your floor-standing tower PCs goes unnoticed for months and people are losing data and productivity because of heat buildup until someone figures out the problem.

I won't even mention the bogus chipsets and driver problems.

I work at the LA division of the same company that you do and my Intel PCs have 80% less downtime.

Guess who get's promoted to CIO for the company?

I say ...let the Tech guys sort it out, they can Earn some of that money they charge.

Meanwhile, I'm counting the Fat Bonus I got for saving the Company $Gazzillions£ in the initial outlay.

[wallie_x]

"Ok, so you're shipping in 10,000 AMD tower PCs and 1% of them are shaken to the point where the HSFs fall off. They won't start and need extensive diagnostics and service."
You redesign how the HSF attaches to the CPU like Intel did.
"You move 500 AMD PCs from your old engineering building to a new one and lose 10 of them to thermal failure."
Next time you don't use a moving company that's called "Meat Head Movers"
"I won't even mention the bogus chipsets and driver problems."
Now come on Bill, that statement is more fiction than fact; this ain't politics...or is it? :confused:

[BipolarBill]

You sure are one hard-headed Brit, Strawbs. :t

Have we forgotten about the KT133 chipset? How about video card incompatibilities?

Which would cost the company more money - productivity @ $200/hr or $120 one time?

[Strawbs]

I don't mean to be Hardheaded Bill, Honest. ;)

I see your point... I just don't get along with 90% of Corporate Business practices, The majority have no morals.

[wallie_x]

"The majority have no morals."
Morals? What strange language is this? Here in California, I mean village of the damned, we're taught that morality is strictly relativistic. There is no true morality except that we cannot judge others by any standards, especially our own. Only those standards that are politically correct are the true standards of morality, which is to say there is none. Is there another world out there that I'm missing??? :confused:

[ukulele]

I think that we can all agree that Intel systems have problems as much as AMD's do, but heatsinks falling off motherboards is not a problem of chip design. Is a problem of poor socket design on cheap motherboards, coupled with the fact that people are putting bigger and heavier heat sinks on them then is necessary because of a percieved heat problem that is nothing more then a myth in the first place. Is a jet engine less reliable then an internal combustion engine because it operates at a higher temperature. Of course not, in fact the opposite is true. It is designed to work that way. I never had a problem with an AMD and they all ran hotter then an equivalent Intel chip. So what, where is the problem? Common sense and following recommend thermal solutions goes a long way towards product reliability. I remember one post where a guy had a copper heat sink that weighed two pounds hanging on his socket and he is wondering why the thing is still getting too hot. I pointed out that just maybe shear gravity was pulling it loose from the socket. I never did hear back from him. He probably fried the chip trying to get it down to Intel temps. How many times have we all hear some call help, my chip is running at 60 degrees, oh my God, what can I do? The first reply is always, get a bigger heatsink and slap on some A3, which is really lame as the fool never had a problem in the first place.

[Strawbs]

Originally posted by wallie_x

Morals? What strange language is this? Here in California, I mean village of the damned, we're taught that morality is strictly relativistic. There is no true morality except that we cannot judge others by any standards, especially our own. Only those standards that are politically correct are the true standards of morality, which is to say there is none. Is there another world out there that I'm missing??? :confused:
the "Business before poeple" standard is what I am against, Now tell me there is "no such thing" or you "don't understand" the lingo.

Language is not always a precise science, apply some common sense to a statement and you may find a reply is not necessary! I have a view, you may have another! we don't all live, work or study in California.

I am sorry to inform you that Morality was not created in California (edited maybe!) and you may indeed be missing "another world" by closing your mind to alternatives to your teachings.

[BipolarBill]

Everyone here in Texas loves California, but they have a tendency to roll their eyes ( :rolleyes: ) when one of it's natives starts talking. Blame it on Jerry Brown if you must. ;)

[wallie_x]

I am sorry to inform you that Morality was not created in California (edited maybe!) and you may indeed be missing "another world" by closing your mind to alternatives to your teachings.
Geeezz. I didn't think sarcasm was so dead. Do you actually believe I was stating such nonsense as fact. The whole paragraph is a sarcastic pun against moral relativism and liberalism. I remember someone here said I was wound too tight, go have a pint and relax a bit. :eek:

[Strawbs]

:confused:

[Giblet Plus!]

My 900@1000 T-Bird runs at Intel Heat levels with a $16 dollar heatsink. (35 C load)
Does anybody else run Dr. Thermal coolers? Mine is pretty nice - I have the V77L. It has an easy lever attachment device, so you don't need a schudiver to smash it into the socket.
I agree that allmost all "cpu" stability problems are caused by the motherboard chipset. Bipolar Bill needs to stop complaining about problems from 2-3 years ago, and learn to double check HSF mounting. (no excess negativity intended, Bipolar Billy):t

[BipolarBill]

Join me in a game of Quake and I will make a giblet of you! Bill needs to stop complaining about problems from 2-3 years ago Try 2 or 3 weeks ago.

The point is that an Intel owner is allowed to be a little sloppy where an AMD user is punished.

There's a forest in those trees there. :rolleyes:

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by BipolarBill
Support costs for AMD systems is higher. This is one of the reasons that the big PC makers avoid AMD.

Check out http://www.sysopt.com/news.html#1029843549 (http://www.sysopt.com/news.html#1029843549 ) It seems that at least one fairly large ;) PC maker has decided that it's worth it to use AMD.

Rob

[BipolarBill]

Interesting. Now that AMD has developed a thermal protection scheme (http://www.asus.com.tw/inside/cop.htm), I guess it's viable in the enterprise.

[$1500-P4 gamer]

Yep, thanks to Asus I saw that a while back. Big Asus fan I am.;)
And here is what I was saying about the Old suposed thermal protection by AMD.
"ASUS found that traditional software-controlled method fails to 100% guarantee the safety of CPU because heat produced may make the operation of application program and operating system unstable or even in malfunction. Thus, in the golden time of overheating, software-control method may fail to stop the system due to out of control. However, ASUS C.O.P monitor the system via hardware and it is uninterruptible even OS or application program hung. "

This is the angle that intel took with the throttleing system. Hardware not software. Its in the bios. This is also why it WILL NOT throttle back unless overheated by quit a bit. Remember all the fud about Intel throttleing back dureing normal usage, all rumors and lies like I said from day one. You set the throttle temps so if it throttles during useage your the reason not the mobo! Good to see some protection for amd BUT, its gotta be a Asus/via combo (C.O.P.) or still no protection. As I said before- the cpu manufacturer needs to take this into their own hands and quit whining about the mobo manufac's not doing it. Just like the socket-now come on ukulele, its the cpu manufacturer that deseigns the sockets not the mobo co's. So if you want a better socket yell at amd not Aopen,Asus and etc. Its the cpu makers job-to ensure thermal protection and a strong socket. When will it be on all mobo's for AMD and hardware not software is the question!:t

[doctj]

I don't think this article was done objectively. PC world recently showed in their august issue that you had to spend $400 dollars more on a P4 system than an athlon system to get similar performance. I don't know how Hardwarezone ran their benchmarks but if you go to other sites a xp 2200 is usually only beaten by a 2.5 or 2.4 Ghz P4 @533 fsb with 1066 RDRAM. This article sounds like Arthur Andersen journalism put out by Intel drones. Compaq has proven that the most cost effective solution is amd/nforce secondly amd has a great upgrade path than Intel. I just dropped a xp 1500 (for $63) in my 18 month old kt133 mobo with just a bios flash. If I had bought a P4 system at that time I would now need to invest in a new mobo. If you have unlimited cash by all means buy a P4 but if you have a budget you'd be foolish to buy it.

[ukulele]

Just like the socket-now come on ukulele, its the cpu manufacturer that deseigns the sockets not the mobo co's

The socket design is not the problem. It is the manufactures who make them who scrimp on quality and like I said, when you put a non-approved heavier heat sink on it then those specs no longer apply. Common sense should tell you that.

[$1500-P4 gamer]

Then explain. Have you even heard of a broken P4 socket as of yet from a too heavy of a HSF unit being used. I sure havent. Who set the standard for the HS and the sockets-ummm Intel the cpu manufacturer. Notice when a HS says aproved for a Athlon xp up to 2100+ or a Pentium 4 2.5gig+. This means it met those standards. The ones that Intel/AMD set up. IF not them then who? Now on the mobo end. Once again they dont just wing these things together. They just like video card manufacturers have to adhere to certain guidlines or specs if you will. One of those is the socket deseign! Others are placement of the mem and etc. Some of these rules can be broken or bent a little like the mem placement. Take the asus p4t-e, it has a dif. arangement for the mem then what Intel spec. for the !850 boards due to them believeing it caused less heat on the mem the way they (asus) did it. Intel aproved it and then it was a done deal. Now if a co. decides not to make it a issue-to not make those guidlines that make a socket strong, a unbendable/breakable rule. Then you have this weak socket prob i.e. retainer clips breaking and etc. If you do make the rules unbreakable then it works! Then you have a strong socket/retaining method and then you have control. Intel does this as we speak, look at the P4 are they not all strong no matter what mboo co you go with? So who isnt making your socket A with strong enuff retainers? AMD! Thats who-noone else is responsible. Heck it took Intel to even start the pc mem standard. Before that it was always hit and miss remember EDO! Or fast page mem! It was chaos trying to upgrade at times. So Intel even goes further to make all parts reliable as in their specs. to provide good upgrades (mem) and a standard for mobo manufac to adhere to and set. Why is it sooo much to ask AMD to contribute a lttle beyond just the cpu to make sure that the mobo does its job? Not praising Intel but after their inventions of agp, pci, pc mem standard etc. etc. where is AMD's input in the pc world beyond cpu's. What have they done to help even their own support better on mobo's? Notta, zip, nothing! Now I like my AMD duron, but there are obvious reasons why the co' can sell the cpus cheaper. Their not going that extra mile about quality control right down to where you turn the pc on. There just saying heres the cpu-it runs on this type of socket, now make some stuff to run it via/sis.:rolleyes:

[ukulele]

Well, P4, I am looking for price/performance ratio. If you follow AMD's specs carefully you get that. I say let the Intel users pay for the inovations, and they do indeed. Thank you very much Intel.

[$1500-P4 gamer]

To answer the question of topic. XP, I have one P4 already. Next will be a budget XP1600+. After putting one together for a freind with recomendations on parts from fellow sysopt members (Thanks Guys, big thanks!). Cause of the price I want a XP for my budget sys for sure! Kicking out the duron 1gig. Hooking it up to my lcd projector I'm making so as to play my dvd's and games on my 8' (yep 8') front projection system. So it will be my home theatre pc. Not dumping lots of cash into it. Wont need to be upgrade either as the req. for playing dvd's arent gonna go up much.:D

[BipolarBill]

Jeez is this server slow during the day!

[ukulele]

Jeez is this server slow during the day!

What, you guys are supposed to be the pro's of overclocking. What's the probem? Blame it on Intel.

[BipolarBill]

Someone needs a nice Hawaiian Punch! :x

[eworm]

my workstation specs:
mobo - msi kt7266 pro 2 ru
cpu -:amd athlon 1500+ xp
ram - 256 mb ddr 266
agp - 32 mb sdr ram geforce 2 mx200 2x,4x
this computer works from 9:00am to 9:00 pm 6 days a week
transferring and editing vhs, dv cam, hi 8 v8, content to vcd
so far, for almost 6 months now, never experience crashes nor freezes when I'm editing audio-video footages. No drop frames also.
Prohibitive cost of Pentium proc. in our country, made me build this AMD computer, though am very worried if switching to AMD is a wise decision, so far, so good I am glad for having a very reliable computer like this one.

[wallie_x]

Quoted from 'doctj':
This article sounds like Arthur Andersen journalism put out by Intel drones.
So was the **** put out by "Uncle Tom's Cabin Guide" on how to vaporize an Athlon in less than 10 seconds. Pure sensationalism from a failing hardware page. When the above web site pits an Athlon against an Intel CPU, especially the P4's, they use benches that are more optimized to exploit the P4's strengths, and then use polemics to describe the outcome.
It's like I heard in a comparison (below)

"Liberals will spread a lie and circulate it so many times, that even in the face of discovery of its falsehood, more than 50 percent of them will ending up believing in it anyway." by unknown. :x

I think the so-called 'Athlon Heat Problem" is more fiction than fact, especially if you use your system with in design parameters, no OC'ing that is. :eek:

[BipolarBill]

Welcome to SysOpt!

Very good. I'm planning on giving my P3 machine an Athlon 1900+ heart transplant in a few days. I've tested it extensively in it's own case and I'm ready to start swapping parts. I really like the performance.

Some would say that I'm an Intel fan and, to a certain extent, that's true. One thing that I am not is unfair. I love to play the "Devil's advocate" though. ;)

[wallie_x]

Screwch Guns For Sale !!

[BipolarBill]

Originally posted by wallie_x
I think the so-called 'Athlon Heat Problem" is more fiction than fact, especially if you use your system with in design parameters, no OC'ing that is. :eek: If you think it's BS and that Tom's is working for WinTel, pull your frickin' HSF off. If you're not willing to try, stop slandering others and spare us the political philosophy.

...and another Texan rolls his eyes.

[BipolarBill]

Before you reply, consider that I have proven Tom to be dead on.

[ukulele]

I'm planning on giving my P3 machine an Athlon 1900+ heart transplant in a few days.

Third time's a charm. :p

[wallie_x]

From BipolarBill:
I have proven Tom to be dead on.
What other web page pulls a snail out of the garden, sits it on an Athlon XP CPU, takes a picture of it and then takes it outside and steps on it. And this is after using benchmarks that are optimized for the P4 to do a so-called comparision. The article used polemics and language intending to flatter Intellian's. I have little respect for THG. HERE (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/02q2/020610/index.html)
All of us AMDian's know **** well if we pulled the HSF of our CPU's that they'd fry in an instant (under load that is). And libel is the written form of slander if Texan's didnt know that. As far as my sociopolitical orientations are concerned, I am only exercising my right to free speech. If a few heinie's get a little chaffed along the way...oh well. That's what spirited debate is all about :cool:

[fluffycow]

Bipolarbill,
In the post "hasn't toms hardware gone downhill lately?", Didn't you post about how he always seems biased toward someone?

I donno, mighta been someone else. If ya ask me though, I don't think any of toms newer articles should be considered accurate unless they stop biasing everything :(

[$1500-P4 gamer]

Nope that was me. Unless BP also said the same thing. And its true, Tom's H is pro Intel one week and then pro AMD the next. Dont try to figure it out. Its just stupid like his website.;)

[tony_scarpelli]

I think of the four major (now three Dell, Compaq/HP, Gateway) PC companies all but one offer Workstations with AMD CPU's in them. So about 75% of the vendors are willing to put their names on AMD's.

I sell virutally 99-100% AMD's for Workstations to my small business clients who average about 10 Workstations each. About 2/3's of the servers I sell are AMD with no problems related to the CPU or stability.

I usually bid both AMD and Intel for both workstations and servers so that my clients can have the best choice or best price performance. Since warranty labor comes out of my pocket, I monitor it very closely. There is no difference in RMA's related to Intel over AMD.

I think that the people complaining the most about AMD's have little experience with them and probably are just loud mouths who feel the need to push their views on everyone else. I think you guys are full of it.

[wallie_x]

tonyscarpelli writes:
I think you guys are full of it.
Whoa!! I think some raw nerves are being exposed. Maybe we should tone it down a bit.
Nah!! AMD Forever!! :p


(But only because I'm a cheap ******* and can't afford Intel.)

[Slade54]

First of all, i really like reading THG, and how do you get that they are Pro Intel? Its after looking at their benchmarks, that i learned that AMD is better Mhz for Mhz then the Intel, and if your wondering why its "Pro Intel one week, and Pro AMD another", they do have more then one writer, and wouldnt you know, they have diff opinons, isnt that a crazy idea.

And another thing, whos the mod if this thread? You might want to kill this thing before it gets outa hand, ppl are really starting to get pissed at eachother.

[corrupted]

i think you're right slade. before someone does kill this thing i'd just like to say i run a pair of Duron systems and the only time i have any problems is in summer, when i'm doing way too many things at once. and then it's only the 850, which has only standard cooling, that gives me any problems. windows XP Pro helps there, but if the hardware couldn't do it . . .

i've seen alot of reviews supporting both sides of this argument, and i have to say it depends on what you're going to be doing with it in the long run that should dictate your choice.

P4 for video and multimedia, AMD for games and business. and a Duron for audio-only work.

[ukulele]

What? Kill a thread because it is too controversial? It is just this type of thread that makes Sysopt interesting. Bump the whiners, keep the thread. If somebody starts slinging ****, sling it back. The fact is if anyone is "full of it" it's probably me at least half the time, but do I care if someone offends me? Hell no, I love a good dog fight. :p

[corrupted]

often disgression is the better part of valour

[ukulele]

corrupted, what you say is true. I don't mean to come off as a rabble rouser, but this subject matter has forever been a topic of heated debate. People do indeed defend thier own decisions, right or wrong. They also tend to follow the crowd like lemmings on a death march. One year ago the trend was all for AMD on this forum. This year it is Intel, and for good reason, but not the reasons addressed in this current topic which is price/performance comparison. When it gets to the point of calling names to make a point then discretion is indeed a virtue, but the fact is the point was made and although it was not very diplomatic, there is a certain truth what Tony said. I don't see where any forum rules were broken and he is entitled to his opinion too. Open debate is healthy even if it gets a bit heated at times. Personally I got a good chuckle out of his response, but I always do try to look at the lighter side. :)

[Strawbs]

Let's keep this thing going, If you make a comment that someone else doesn't agree with they have a right to question that comment, it's called a discussion.

As for me, I can't wait til the day we can throw a "Virtual Punch" that'll knock someone out of thier chair :eek: ,

But I guess we will need more processing power and faster connection speeds for that.

:x

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by ukulele
What? Kill a thread because it is too controversial? It is just this type of thread that makes Sysopt interesting.

We're doing OK in this thread. We're not doing a lot of personal attacks (although the occaisional slip in.) Debate is healthy -- particularly when both sides are open to learning about the other's position.

Rob

[wallie_x]

rbogue writes:
Debate is healthy -- particularly when both sides are open to learning about the other's position.
Sysopt has helped me, especially with the above. I used to be much more virulently anti-Intel. However, it was getting into heated debates with a very knowledgeable pro-Intellian that made me re-think my position (thanks P4 gamer). I respect Intel products much more than I used to. Now I just wish AMD had more money for developement. Both have become excellent CPU makers and thier competition is breeding excellence in the lightning fast advancement of computer technology.

[Picard]

Originally posted by tony_scarpelli
I think of the four major (now three Dell, Compaq/HP, Gateway) PC companies all but one offer Workstations with AMD CPU's in them. So about 75% of the vendors are willing to put their names on AMD's.


Neither Gateway nor Dell offer AMD based workstations. HP/Compaq is one company. Only 1 of the 3 - NOT FOUR - major PC vendors is willing to put their names on AMDs. I have not checked, though, hp/compaq's site to confirm that they offer AMD workstations or if all of their AMD systems are targeted to the home market, in which case they would not be workstations.

[ukulele]

Neither Gateway nor Dell offer AMD based workstations.

Let's not get into semantics here. I know plenty of people who use home PC's for work stations. What's in a name?

[Strawbs]

I know this link is getting worn out, But ...I would love to see em do a cost\performance comparison with This Baby (http://www.tomshardware.com/cpu/02q3/020821/index.html) :r

Intels for breakfast anybody :r :D

[ITGuru]

This group and thread has been very interesting and good. I don’t know that I have a lot to add except that some of the points that were made to address which is a better CPU actually were addressing other issues.

1. Which is a better CPU
2. Which company is better Intel or AMD
3. Which CPU makes a better system
4. Does one CPU rate better in corporate vs personal computing
5. ….

Over my 20+ year’s experience in the industry, I have seen the question of who’s CPU is better than the other, several times. And on several occasions the better CPU manufacturer didn’t have the staying power (they went onto more profitable business or just quit).

Now my opinion… Intel is a great company. Other CPUs have been and are better then Intel’s but it doesn’t mean that Intel CPU are not good (good vs better). Marketing has changed the playing field a bit by calling an AMD running at a core speed of 2.133 GHz a 2.6+ CPU. Specifically, an AMD CPU (not system) running at the same core speed of an Intel, vastly out performs the Intel. Take a Pentium 4 at 2 GHz and the AMD with a core speed of 2 GHz (Athlon XP 2.4+) and run the tests. I have, and the AMD outperformed the Intel CPU in all tests. So with that in mind the AMD CPU is better.

Now the same argument using Marketing’s naming scheme. Is an AMD 2.4+ GHz CPU as good or better than an Intel 2.4 GHz? Given the industry tests results, they are equivalent (each shows better results on various tests but by a small margin). Interjecting the cost factor and assuming AMD underperformed Intel by 5% in every test there is at least a 30 % price difference – AMD is less expensive.

Along the lines of buying the less expensive system… I have noticed that many people look at and want the system that does all the latest and greatest but when it comes to paying for it they buy something completely different. But still maintain their desire / expectations of the more expensive machine. So if a system builder is looking to build “budget” computers they usually use components with less support or quality. Since the AMD is less expensive, this is the CPU that is often used. This system then is more prone to problems. But it does not mean the CPU or AMD is bad. I have seen systems with AMD in them that had the incorrect heat sink, bad fans, poor construction etc. and ultimately the vendor blamed AMD. It is the nature of the beast – its cheaper so give it less respect.

Concerning which CPU makes a better system… Given a static situation and a good system builder both can make a solid stable system (I have built both). In a dynamic situation – build a system today and next year add something or replace the OS – the system with the greatest numbers get first attention from the various vendors. Intel usually wins here. Given a three-year life of a system (I look at replacement between 3-5 yrs), I usually don’t change too many things except for the addition of software both AMD and Intel are ok. I might change the OS towards the end of the life cycle (only if practical not just for grins) and even then, I don’t have too many problems. Just a side note – I have a Kaypro XP using an NEC V20 CPU, DOS 5 and WordPerfect and it still runs and it keeps up with my typing speed. If I attempt to change out any of its components, even if they are from the same period, I am sure to have problems but that doesn’t mean the CPU is bad.

Would I suggest or replace the 1700+ Intel based computer that I now support with AMD? Only if a maraud of other issues are addressed. Specifically, vender support and testing of our custom apps (developed on Intel based computers) worked and … So, based on pure technological ability of the CPU, my answer is Yes.

Another interesting point I read the other day… Intel’s budget for R&D last year was greater than AMD’s gross operating budget. And AMD still produced CPUs that compete with Intel. – just an interesting point.

[corrupted]

the real difference is that network machines, in whatever capacity, are designed with more cache and a slightly different clock cycle to handle network processes better. that was obvious when intel released a version of the Xeon with 2MB cache on the processor.

[$1500-P4 gamer]

Welcome to sysopt!:t

[corrupted]

yeah, welcome guru. hope you enjoy the show

[Strawbs]

Welcome Guru,

I'm glad the debate has managed to draw you in to the community!

:)

[rlbogue]

Originally posted by Strawbs
I'm glad the debate has managed to draw you in to the community!

Drawn in as in "Giant sucking sound" or perhaps "Black Hole"? Actually it's cool to see people get sucked into our conversations, and interesting to see how many lurkers there are.

:)

Rob

[Strawbs]

It's more like the "BlacK Hole" variety, as it's easy to lose all track of time once you start getting involved,
My wife tends to complain whenever she see's SysOpt on screen, because she knows the only responces she will get from me will be "Uumm!" and "Yeah! yeah! whatever!"

:D

[corrupted]

or perhaps, " in a minute". the minute that lasts half an hour . . .

[Aznmask]

Originally posted by ITGuru

1. Which is a better CPU
2. Which company is better Intel or AMD
3. Which CPU makes a better system
4. Does one CPU rate better in corporate vs personal computing



1. hard to answer ..
2. INTEL is a big company.. compare with AMD (small)
3. if you dont care about the price.. INTEL alway make his CPU fastest in first. like 2.8Ghz.. and AMD> only have hm? 2400XP??
4. Personal pc depend what ppl use it.. ppl buy AMD czu they good for gaming, czu cheap. In corporation like company they use INTEL chip.. maybe it cut cost on the electric, have better support..

[corrupted]

aznmask, companies tend to buy intel coz the word pentium sounds better than athlon. also, most execs tend to think that a high speed cpu will perform better than a lower speed one, regardless of what happens in the real world. thus, they are more likely to authorize a purchase of intel hardware than AMD hardware. the lack of AMD's advertising in mass media doesn't help their cause.

ducatti released the 916 one year, and it won the superbike championship. honda released the RC45, and lost to the previous mopel honda in almost every aspect. i get a sense of de ja vu now . . .

[Giblet Plus!]

What do you mean by that, corrupted?

I'd be happy to waste Bipolar Bill in Quake 3. The name "Giblet Plus" was concieved of while I was still getting good at quake and cstrike as a sarcastic moniker. :t

[corrupted]

ducatti's gross operating budget is almost as much as honda's HRC (honda racing corp.) budget.the bike handled better than it predecessor, whereas the RC45 only had more power.

[dyurdz]

Originally posted by eworm
Prohibitive cost of Pentium proc. in our country, made me build this AMD computer, though am very worried if switching to AMD is a wise decision, so far, so good I am glad for having a very reliable computer like this one.

Ironic isn't it? most pentium 4's are made and tested here in our country (Philippines)... I have friends in Assembly and Testing lines of Pentium 4's (some Engineers and some Technicians and some already moved to the US)... I am also woking for a subcontractor Assembly and Test company. And we have 4 plants here in the Philippines. 1 of our assembly plant here in the Philippines assemble Intel chips. Intel wouldn't let us test them though:( (Well, before they did)

Anyway, to answer the question, I would choose AMD. Heck, I am using AMD now. As for the heat issues, I dont mind running my CPU @ 50 deg...

1 of our assembly plant here is formerly an AMD plant. :D

[corrupted]

i use a duron, so heat isn't a huge concern to me. it's usually 45 in summer in this standard box, 35 in the modded box.

[eworm]

welcome kababayan dyurdz,:t

my 2nd AMD Athlon 1800+ XP workstation now ready for prosumer class of video NLE and content transfer for vcd and dvd format which is now a profitable and enjoyable kind of work I have now.

my 1st workstation an AMD Athlon 1500+ XP still running more or less 12 hrs a day yet I never experience a problem up to this writing. even the so called thermal issues about AMD processor, no problemo amigo.

Compatibility and thermal consideration is the key factor that I carefully look into whenever I build a computer. and the price, of course. It doesn't mean that when a certain product is cheaper than their competitor, the quality also is cheap. Its in the PACKAGING that a product becomes expensive, take a good look in drug products, I don't think generics is less effective than the branded one.

I am not for or against to any company. Their concern was their profits of course. they don't think about us but their product, how to package it well that will make you buy.

I have also a Pentium 3 750mhz workstation for the same load of works. No problems too.

To sum it all. the only difference is the price.

[corrupted]

i have an old intel 233mmx i'm going to use for dvd recording and playback. it has a 5.1 channel sound card and a creative banshee card, and will soon have a creative dvd decoder card. why? because it works and it was all cheap when i got hold of it. i'm actually getting the dvd decoder for free, and it was imported from the U.S. to AUS.

until intel can make a processor which is cheap, powerful, and practical, i'll use durons or VIA C3s.