Integrated video card NOT plug n play? [Archive]

rwhiteside

07-21-2002, 05:32 PM

Heres one for you all: we got to wipe a HD and install WinME on the system. Installation successful, but now the video driver that ME wants to put on there is the standar PCI graphics driver, and now we only have 16 colors and 640 X 480. The user does not know what kind of video card it is, has no documentation, it is integrated into the mother board, and I have no idea what kind it is. Why did this integrated card not come up plug and play ... everything else did? Is there anyways I can find out what driver to use? Forgot what kind of mobo it is ... oh i guess i could look up that model mobo (if there is enough information provided by BIOS so identify it).

tricktx

07-21-2002, 06:07 PM

firstly, what motherboard are you running.
secondly, try going to control panel>add new hardware and seeing if it shows up

Richard

michaelwest

07-21-2002, 06:09 PM

If it is integrated video you should look in the motherboard manual and see if it says any thing about the video card brand.

If nothing is in there then look on the internet for a review or specifications page for your motherboard. This page should say the brand of video card integrated.

grimfandango

07-21-2002, 08:46 PM

just pop in your mobo cd and install the drivers again!

:t

rwhiteside

07-22-2002, 03:38 PM

The customer has nothing: no manual or drivers disk to work from. Apparently he recieved nothing, but a very basic manual that describes "how to turn the computer on".

Heres what I got from the initial BIOS information screen when I turned the computer on:
Atthe top:
SBA0831D
Inte Celeron 466 Mhz

At the bottom:
8/31/99
Sis 620-2A6INB09C-00

So,I'm assuming from the bottom that the mobo is using a SIS chipset, but still this does not tell me the manufacuter of the board. Any know what it means? Also, isn't there a program of some kind i can get off the net to tell me what kind of mobo and manufactuer?

Thanks!

Peter M

07-22-2002, 05:52 PM

You don't need to know that. Go to www.sis.com, download the latest AGP driver (advertized for later chipsets, but nevermind), and the graphics driver for the 620 chipset. Install the latter first, then the former (to replace the AGP driver buried inside the graphics driver), and there you go.

regards, Peter

Peter M

07-22-2002, 05:55 PM

Oh btw, that line does tell you the manufacturer of the mainboard. Go to www.wimsbios.com, enter the "Award BIOS" section and learn how to read that ID code.

regards, Peter

AllGamer

07-22-2002, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by rwhiteside
The customer has nothing: no manual or drivers disk to work from. Apparently he recieved nothing, but a very basic manual that describes "how to turn the computer on".

Heres what I got from the initial BIOS information screen when I turned the computer on:
Atthe top:
SBA0831D
Inte Celeron 466 Mhz

At the bottom:
8/31/99
Sis 620-2A6INB09C-00

So,I'm assuming from the bottom that the mobo is using a SIS chipset, but still this does not tell me the manufacuter of the board. Any know what it means? Also, isn't there a program of some kind i can get off the net to tell me what kind of mobo and manufactuer?

Thanks!

Some times a little brute force helps, like in this case.

Have you tried opening the case up, and checking out for all the Big Chipsets on the Mobo?

unless you are un-eased about opening the case, follow what Peter suggested, but yet with that you are still Gessing.

Since it can only let you know the Mobo chipset, but not likely about the Video chipset.

Now in turn if you installed Win2K or WinXP, then by default both of those has build in drivers that will work for that Mobo.

there are some PNP utilities, that can detect the basic info for you, and that might make it easier for you to find the driver for the proper video chipset.

rwhiteside

07-23-2002, 03:21 AM

I tried opening the case and looking for any kind of inoformation, couldn't find anything. What kind of PNP utilities can I get for detection of the video card?

Peter M

07-23-2002, 03:58 AM

The integrated card _is_ Plug&Play (it's pretending to be an AGP device after all, which implies PnP).

The problem is that your operating system neither has AGP bus drivers for the chipset nor VGA drivers for the embedded graphics unit. Follow my advice from above.

regards, Peter

rwhiteside

07-24-2002, 05:24 PM

Peter,
On the SIS website, should I go with the driver listed under:
SiS648, SiS645DX , SiS645 , SiS651 , SiS650 , SiS745 , SiS740 , SiS735 , SiS733 , SiS635 , SiS633 , SiS730 , SiS630 AGP Driver

OR the driver under
SiS600 AGP Driver (Version1.0

Thanks for your help, can't wait to try, I'll let you know what happens.

AllGamer

07-24-2002, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by rwhiteside
Peter,
On the SIS website, should I go with the driver listed under:
SiS648, SiS645DX , SiS645 , SiS651 , SiS650 , SiS745 , SiS740 , SiS735 , SiS733 , SiS635 , SiS633 , SiS730 , SiS630 AGP Driver

OR the driver under
SiS600 AGP Driver (Version1.0

Thanks for your help, can't wait to try, I'll let you know what happens.

See what i mean, if you can find out exactely which Chip set it has inside, then you won't have to go on Guessing, and trying out every single driver to find out if it works.

rwhiteside

07-25-2002, 10:03 AM

Yeah, but doesn't my BIOS report anyways that I have the 620 chipset? I'm thinking that the 600 chipset is for the 600 series so I will try that. And why do I install the graphics driver on top of the mobo drivers?

AllGamer

07-25-2002, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by rwhiteside
Yeah, but doesn't my BIOS report anyways that I have the 620 chipset? I'm thinking that the 600 chipset is for the 600 series so I will try that. And why do I install the graphics driver on top of the mobo drivers?

hmm.... normally i've gone for a sarcastic remark..

but on a serious side;

A mobo drivers, software, etc. usually only contains stuff really for the Mobo Only.

say even it included a fix, patch whatever for the video

then it's still not a video driver.

about 99.9% of the time, video driver are always Packed separately.

due the frecuency in release that makes this requirement.

i've seen mobo installation CDs that came with everything including Video drivers included on 1 setup screen, where you can not even select what you want.

Namely SIS build in all type of Mobos.

but yet even with that they still have specific drivers for Video chipset on each manufacture websites, for whatever reason.

and the only reason that you need them, is only if the OS does not recognize the video with whatever drivers you have installed already.

so it's not necesssary if Windoze finds it, but will be required if it can't.

Peter M

07-25-2002, 11:55 AM

Use the new AGP driver. This isn't advertized for the older chipsets, but it does support them all.

You still need the VGA driver for the 620. Install that first (it includes a much older AGP driver), and then install the new AGP driver on top of it.

regards, Peter

ukulele

07-25-2002, 03:22 PM

Integrated video card NOT plug n play?

It is rare to find anything that is really plug and play. Microsoft first tried it with Win95, but is was a joke from the very start. That's why most folks call it plug and pray. A rule of thumb is NEVER reformat and reinstall untill you have all your necessary drivers on floppys or cd disk media, oh, and send Bill a letter and tell him how much you love his false advertising. :r

AllGamer

07-25-2002, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by ukulele

It is rare to find anything that is really plug and play. Microsoft first tried it with Win95, but is was a joke from the very start. That's why most folks call it plug and pray. :r

LOL, oh yeah i remember those times well enough, back when we were trying to Jam a win95 into a 4meg 386 16mhz

or trying to get that DARN (hehehe....) brand new Plug and Pray, device to work after it was added to that piece of Plug and Pray PCI slot, in the late models of 486s with PCI.
and very early Mathematically challenged P 60 with "working" Plug and Pray

:D:t

ukulele

07-25-2002, 04:04 PM

I hear XP is better, but I have to ask, better for what? ;)

Peter M

07-25-2002, 04:57 PM

Got to keep things separate folks. Plug&Play itself, being implemented by PCI and ISA hardware as well as system BIOS, is something that works well. The innovation here has been that every PnP device is detectable, and declares its resources in a machine readable way.

PnP does _not_ mean that the operating system has embedded drivers for everything it detects. It just means it detects every PnP enabled piece of hardware, and is able to identify a suitable driver when it sees one.

regards, Peter

ukulele

07-25-2002, 05:06 PM

PnP does _not_ mean that the operating system has embedded drivers for everything it detects. It just means it detects every PnP enabled piece of hardware, and is able to identify a suitable driver when it sees one.

You better qualify that statement Peter. I have found more then a few PNP devices that windows never sees and comes back with an unknown hardware dialog. ;)

AllGamer

07-25-2002, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by Peter Missel
Got to keep things separate folks. Plug&Play itself, being implemented by PCI and ISA hardware as well as system BIOS, is something that works well. The innovation here has been that every PnP device is detectable, and declares its resources in a machine readable way.

PnP does _not_ mean that the operating system has embedded drivers for everything it detects. It just means it detects every PnP enabled piece of hardware, and is able to identify a suitable driver when it sees one.

regards, Peter

you are right about it Peter, were were just making fun of the Buggy Windoze in regards to PNP, making a whole mess out of what should have been a good technology.

Lighten up man, the stress can kill ya
:t :D

or sometimes can simply drive you insane :x

Peter M

07-26-2002, 04:31 AM

Well being a BIOS developper, I must say (as much as it hurts doing so ;)) that Windows's PnP implementation is quite OK. In the area of non-PCI PnP devices, it has a few surprises in store for the developpers of cards and mainboard integrated I/O - but once you got your stuff right, you'll be detected. 99.99 percent of PnP problems are about faulty PnP implementations in the card hardware or mainboard BIOS.

Making these mistakes is more popular than you think - even Creative's ISA SoundBlaster series consistently screwed up on their PnP data. Nowadays we don't have ISA PnP cards anymore, but we still have onboard ISA-style devices (legacy ports, interrupt controller, real time clock et al) that need a PnP description. Since BIOS engineeers are humans too, and some of them are lazy humans, be prepared to see less than perfect behavior of your system.

regards, Peter

ukulele

07-26-2002, 05:35 AM

You have a good point, Peter. There is one thing that hardware makers could do to make life a lot easier on the home builder, label the boards better. How many times have I wasted way too much time trying to identifiy a card so I could find a driver. The FCC ID method is flawed in that it only gives you the manufacturer, not the vender or driver to use. More often then not it is a matter of quesswork finding the right driver or specs on a device. I could never for the life of me understand why so many venders refuse to leave a clue as to what driver to look for, or just exactly what board you have. Every board should have a specific ID to link it to the correct driver. If Plug and Play worked right, windows should request a specific driver from information read off the card itself, not just report something like "Communication device found, insert driver". This is lame and not very well thought out in my opinion.

Peter M

07-26-2002, 08:12 AM

That's a tiny little problem there. PnP and PCI cards carry uniquely assigned vendor ID numbers. For PCI cards, you can have them displayed by a diagnostics tool and then look them up on www.pcisig.org (if that tool doesn't contain a list anyway), but for ISA PnP cards (where Microsoft assign the vendor ID numbers), there is no public ID database I know of.

Windows drivers are always accompanied by .INF files. And in there, all the vendor and device ID codes that this driver is for are listed. That's the way the operating system uses - read the device's vendor and device IDs, and then find a match in all the installed .INF files.

If the search draws a blank, Windows then just lists the device type and class code (as in "PCI Simple Communications device"). If it were trying to be nicer, it could at least say "SiS PCI ..." or "Unknown vendor 4C53h PCI Other Network Device ..." to give at least some starting point for a driver search.

regards, Peter

ukulele

07-26-2002, 11:35 AM

For PCI cards, you can have them displayed by a diagnostics tool

Peter, is this a software or hardware tool? It sounds like a usefull thing to have. Where can I find it?

Peter M

07-26-2002, 01:56 PM

Software of course. That's the whole point in Plug&Play - make the hardware such that software can identify what it is and what its resource requirements are.

Enter the PCI bus section here:

http://members.hyperlink.net.au/~chart/

for a selection of PCI device analysis utilities. Craig's own is quite good, running in DOS, decoding everything a PCI device can tell, and also being able to display the mainboard's interrupt routing scheme.

regards, Peter