I know this'll seem crazy to all you folk flying 1 and 2 GHz m'chines - good for a laff maybe...!
What's the best I can get out of (and put into) this board? I put together spare PC (word processing for homework, etc) with some old parts:
Pentium Series1 200
64mb EDO
Diamond Virge S2 2mb (I think)
I was thinking maybe AMD K6 300 at 75/83MHz, set multiplier to X3.5 (it'll also take Pentium MMX up to 233, but AMD seems best bet). Maybe speed things up a little...
Don't suppose it would be any better to use a K6-2 would it? Did they start that slow anyway? Faster CPU could run slower, but would there be any advantage - eg, would it use the 3D-now in K6-2, and L1 cache? Plus, the board will only drop CPU voiltage to 2.5v: bit high for K6-2?
Manual I've got doesn't have much detail. Eg: what determines if CPU clock is 75 or 83 MHz? (x3.5 multiplier gives me 262.5 @75, and 290 @83)
Anyone know how much I'd get one for (2nd hand only I guess)?
Thanks,
Easy
Rocketmech
06-13-2002, 10:04 PM
The i233mmx and a VooDoo2 would make a real performance boost.
With the knowledge you've presented here you know that the only way to speed the cpu is with a mobo mod or do what common sense tells ya and upgrade the system. But if your just bored here's the real good unoffical stuff:
http://www.zarniwoop.force9.co.uk/index.htm
:cool:
Peter M
06-14-2002, 05:37 AM
Best you can do to the 537+, within its design limits, is:
Putting a K6-2 in requires hardware modifications to get the voltage down to 2.2V.
regards, Peter
Easy
06-14-2002, 07:02 AM
Thanks, both
btw Peter, I tried a 128 DIMM stick (as discussed in a previous post: it'll take 2 DIMMs - even let you mix DIMMs and SIMMs though I guess doing that would slow mem response..?)
128 DIMM was from DaneElectric (16mb x 64). Looked like the ridges / gaps on underside of the module and in the socket corresponded, but no way would it go in (it was a bit of a pain getting it into a MVP3...). Turned out to be single- sided, but the clips at each end of the DIMM sockets are different anyway. Spoke to the guys at DaneElectric who told me I'd need old (original design) DIMM modules to fit this board, not PC100, etc... sound right to you?
I guessed the Vid Card would be a big factor - seems to find it an effort drawing some of the stuff right even in Word. Other thing is hard disk access I think, but I'm not messing with that - very cheap 2nd PC was the idea, but we'll be using it for a while, so speeding it up is tempting...
So, any idea where I'd get this stuff, folks (Cyrix, old SDRAM 128, VooDoo 2)... anyone in UK got this stuff they want rid of...?!! Cost...?
Thanks again
Midknyte
06-14-2002, 07:22 AM
You could try to find a P233 MMX and overclock that to around 290. I did that on a 430TX motherboard and it was pretty fast at the time. your vx pro+ is really a via vpx chipset, so i think it can handle 83mhz pretty well.
I would avoid cyrix cpus like the plague.
AMD K6-2s usually had a core voltage of 2.4 or less. the CXT core ones used 2.2v or less. the cxt core also used the 2x setting as 6x multiplier. If you have support for these lower voltages, you might be able to run a k6-2 at 6x83! Your bios would also have to support the CXT core, though.
that's very strange about the ram. I ran PC133 dimms in my TX board with no problems. Since it's a via board, i'm pretty sure it would take the newer dimms. If you had and Intel 430VX, then it would be a different story.
You could probably find an old TNT or TNT2 card for cheap now. I think it would be a pretty good all around card.
I'm not in your part of the world, so I'm not sure where to get this stuff. I would try to scrounge around for old parts. If someone is getting rid of old stock, you can scoop some parts. I got an old compaq that's built from spare parts. It's slow like a turtle in mud, but it still works. :D
Easy
06-14-2002, 08:53 AM
Does the m'board choose 75 or 83 automatically, depending on the CPU (jumper setting says 75/83)?
No go K6-2: board only goes down to 2.5v. So if not Cyrix, and not K6-2, then is it K6 300...?
Pentium MMX 233 --> 290... isn't that pushing it a bit? Thishas to run stable without me spending time messing with it once it's set up...
Anyone wanting to off-load any parts....
Thanks!
Easy
Midknyte
06-14-2002, 02:38 PM
290 worked fine for me. I didn't even have to increase the voltage or anything. I can't guarantee it will work for you, but it's worth a shot if you can get a free cpu.
K6-2 300 might be an option. You could try to find a 2.4v cpu and run it at 2.5v. you'll have to get a good heatsink on it.
Midknyte
06-14-2002, 02:39 PM
Oh yeah. You'll have to set the jumpers manually. This board was made before bioses set multipliers and bus speeds. It might have auto voltage detect, but i would use the jumpers anyway.
Peter M
06-14-2002, 02:51 PM
The DIMMs do fit, must be 12ns or faster. PC100 or PC133 is fine. Note two things: First, on those old DIMM slots, those levers are just extraction levers, not retention clips. They don't reach up to the notch in the DIMMs. Second, DIMM slots that haven't been used for a long time can be incredibly tight. Put something underneath the board to support it, and then push it down HARD. A crackling sound indicates that it's seated, a cracking sound indicates you've pushed too hard :) Get the right kind of DIMM (128-MByte 16-chip double sided, "8x8" 64-MBit chip technology) before you try.
Regarding the processors, no reason to "avoid Cyrixes like the plague". Saying that is parrotwork, actually it's the best CPU to fit into this board - and it performs excellently (for the time, remember, we're talking 1997 gear here) in applications. Gaming will suck anyway, no matter what CPU you fit.
The board needs to be jumpered to the correct bus speeds - and while a 83 MHz setting is there, 75 MHz is the maximum what the chipset (VIA VPX/97) is made for, and the L2 cache chips don't do 83 either on the majority of these boards.
regards, Peter
Easy
06-15-2002, 11:12 AM
Thanks again, both: did seem I was going to break the mobo if I pushed any harder - good tip, Peter! Could one or other of you (or both, I'm not fussy...!) help out once more with some of these jumper settings...
Manual (Downloaded) I have gives these settings:
JP3 sets CPU clock 75MHz max (no setting for 83); JP3(D) sets PCI clock to 33 for 75MHz CPU clock speed
JP5 sets CPU Internal Clock multiplier; 2.0x, 2.5x and 3.0x are clear
1st setting (AB both jumpered across pins 1 and 2) gives either 1.5x or 3.5x for Intel, 1.5x K5, 3.5x K6.
Does this mean Intel CPU will itself select 1.5 or 3.5 automatically?
This setting says 'Reserved' for Cyrix (IDT all settings 'reserved' except 3.0 but I've never heard of them).
Does that mean the most I could get Cyrix up to is 225, or is the manual wrong, and a Cyrix MII-333 would automatically go to 290 with that jumper setting in this board?
JP9 is CPU type: Dual or Single voltage. This isn't clear in the manual. Examples given are
P55C (Dual Voltage): Intel MMX, AMD K6, IBM/Cyrix 6X86L, M2
P54C (Single Voltage): Intel MMX, AMD K6, IBM/Cyrix 6X86L/6x86MX(M2), IDTC6
Now - is that confusing, or is it just me? (I thought P54C was Series 1 Pentium, and 55C was MMX for a start...)
So, assuming I can find either a 233MMX, K6 300, or a CyrixII-333, what JP9 settings do I use? Is the CyrixMII-333 different name for 6x86MX(M2)?
Thanks (in anticipation...!) for all the time, trouble and patience
Easy
Peter M
06-15-2002, 11:26 AM
Regarding the multiplier, you must get the concept: The CPU does the multiplying, the jumpers just provide a selection of multipliers that entirely depends on what CPU you put in.
The setting that meant 1.5x to the original Pentium means 3.5x to Pentium-MMX, AMD K6 and later Cyrix MII.
Dual voltage mode is for Intel Pentium-MMX (aka P55C), Cyrix 6x86L, 6x86MX and MII, and AMD K6. Single voltage mode is for the original Pentium and 6x86 as well as K5.
So for the ideal MII I mentioned above, you set to 75 MHz w/ 33 MHz PCI, P55C mode, 1.5x/3.5x, and 2.9V. That gets you 262 MHz, which is a performance rating of "333".
For SDRAM the DIMM voltage is set to 3.3V btw.
regards, Peter
fishybawb
06-15-2002, 05:04 PM
If you're still looking for parts, give eBay a go. I've bought loads of old hardware there. http://www.ebay.co.uk
Easy
06-16-2002, 08:40 AM
And again, thank you. You've been incredibly helpful here Peter - much appreciated. A few things I understand better now, too..! Though I don't get that bit about 262MHz = 333 performance rating, but no worries
And thanks, Fishybawb. I'll check out e-Bay
Easy
Midknyte
06-16-2002, 09:03 AM
You know how AMD is doing the Pentium Rating with the Athlon XP? that's the same thing that Cyrix did with its CPUs back in the socket7 days.
Sorry, I was working today, so I didn't get back right away. :(
Peter M
06-16-2002, 09:33 AM
Exactly - Cyrix back then had the same marketing problem AMD has now.
You got a CPU that gets more work done per clock than your competitor's. Now how do you get the point across to the average computer buying sheep that believe in large numbers on shiny boxes? Right, run a performance comparison and rate your product by performance, not clock speed.
Cyrix back then used ZD Business WinBench 98, and compared to K6-2 and Celeron.
So an MII-333, while running 262/75 MHz, gives you approximately the same business application and web browsingperformance as a Celeron 333 would - in an otherwise as identical as possible system.
regards, Peter
Easy
06-16-2002, 09:07 PM
No worries midknyte, all the help is well appreciated - this explanation is really clear, AND tells me why a Cyrix 333 is best bet. Now to see if I can find one.....
Last qu on this (I think/hope):
Just ran SiSoft on MVP3 m'chine which has the 128mb DIMM RAM stick I tried in the VXpro+, and another 128mb stick. Gave this info:
Logical/Chipset Memory Banks
Bank 0 Setting: 128MB SDRAM 6-1-1-1R 4-1-1-1W 2-3-3CL
Bank 2 Setting: 64MB SDRAM 6-1-1-1R 4-1-1-1W 2-3-3CL
Bank 3 Setting: 64MB SDRAM 6-1-1-1R 4-1-1-1W 2-3-3CL
(Memory Bus Speed: 100MHz)
Would I be right in thinking Mem Module 2 is Bank 2 and 3, older, and is the kind I'm looking for, ie
128-MByte 16-chip double sided, "8x8" 64-MBit chip technology?
Midknyte
06-16-2002, 09:43 PM
You might as well use the older ram. I think either one should work. the chipset is new enough that it shouldn't have the same problems as the intel 430vx chipset. Since you're not going to run at 100mhz anyway, i would use the older ram. :D
Peter M
06-17-2002, 05:35 AM
DIMM #2 (the double sided one) looks like a good candidate for VXpro+, yes. You can even run it CL2 at 75 MHz.
Midknyte, no, not either one will work. While not as limited as the Intel VX and VIA Apollo VP-1 aka "VXpro", VXpro+ does have a ceiling on size per SDRAM chip. 64 MBits it is, see above.
regards, Peter
Midknyte
06-17-2002, 05:46 AM
Ah. Ok. You're right. I missed the 64-mbit remark. doh.
I think the max ram on that chipset is 128mb anyway.
Peter M
06-17-2002, 07:54 AM
Nope, it's 64 MBytes per bank, so with six banks max it's 384 MBytes. The 512 KBytes of L2 cache on this board cover 128 or 256 MBytes (IIRC) depending on whether you configure it Write-Back or Write-Through.
regards, Peter
Midknyte
06-17-2002, 03:04 PM
****, I think i was looking at the vx specs instead of the vxpro+. With a 2MB cache, the vxpro+ can support up to 512MB.
If I move DIMM #2 to to the VXPro+ and get another MATCHING 128Mb DIMM to DIMM#1 in the MVP3, can I interleave the SDRAM Memory, and will that again speed things up a little? Disabled at present, cos they don't match..
Other than that, you're now you're taking this some way beyond what I need to know (and probably what I can understand), but what the hell, let me see how far I can keep up... maybe I'll fall over right here...
All the following could be wrong... let me know if you don't want to carry on with this...
You're talking about 64M-BIT not 64Mbyte technology...? 8 bits to a byte? DIMM #2: 8 x(8M x 16); DIMM #1: 8 x(16M x 8)
Ok, in DIMM #1, there are only 8 separate mem chips - shown in the bracket as (16MX8)? Each chip is 16Mbit? Or is each chip 16Mbit x 8 = 16Mbytes, and there's 8 of them = 128Mb. So why's it written that way? Why (or what) is the 8 outside the bracket....?
DIMM #2, 16 mem chips - shown in bracket as (8M x 16)? But again, multiplier outside the bracket, so it goes from 16 x 8M-BIT chips, to 16 x 8Mbyte chips, but if they're 8 Mbyte chips why not write them that way, or is each chip somehow made up of 8 parts....
What's CL2, CL3? The 4-1-1-1R 6-1-1-1W etc is (something like...) no of CPU clock cycles to memory Read and memory Write cycles - higher the first no, the better/faster?
Like I said, I don't need to know this stuff, just interested....
Easy
Midknyte
06-17-2002, 06:52 PM
I think Peter was talking about the individual chip density. Each chip is 64Mbit or 8MB (64/8). That means you would have 16 chips on the dimm in order to get 128MB (16chips x 8MB =128MB).
The limit on the vxpro is 64Mbit per chip. That's why you can't use the other ram.
64MB is the limit per bank. Remember that each DIMM slot is actually 2 banks. Thus 3 slots, 6 banks, 384MB max.
Thus, each slot can have a 128MB dimm max.
Peter, I hope I got this one right. :D
Easy
06-17-2002, 07:03 PM
ok yeah, it's 64M-bit technlogy limit (for the board to read/understand), so the Chips have to be that size, but why is the first 8 outside the bracket?
Ie, why isn't DIMM #2 written as 16x (8M x 8), and DIMM #1 as 8x (16M x 8)?
Is it because data right down at base level comes in single BITS that the memory capacity is referred to by BITs, in ths case 64M-bits, rather than talking about that as 8Mbytes - 'cos not all the BITS come in bytes.... ie, you might get a load of data which doesn't necessarily add up to an even no of bytes..????
just thinking out loud here....
oh, and it's 2 DIMM slots, plus 4 SIMM slots. You can't use SIMM 1 and 2 with DIMM 2. Any other combination is ok, so could install 2 x SDRAM DIMM 128Mb sticks double-sided - ie: 2 DIMMs = 4 banks x 64Mb, plus 2 SIMMS of 64Mb each, = 384Mb
But I'd guess mixing EDO SIMMS and SDRAM DIMMs would slow memory access, so best would be 2 x 128Mbyte SDRAM DIMMS, set to whichever cache mode supports 256Mb. If I wanted to, which I don't..!
MVP3 Interleave with MATCHING SDRAM..?
Peter M
06-17-2002, 07:29 PM
You shouldn't mix SDRAM with other technology. You can mix SIMMs and DIMMs, but only if you use EDO DIMMs - a technology that never really took off.
Regarding DIMM geometry, it SHOULD be described as
numberofchips x (adressmatrix-size x datapath-width)
which gives you the chip geometry in brackes.
SDRAM chips have a certain address matrix size (in rows and columns) requiring a certain number of memory address lines coming from the chipset. And _this_ is what imposes the limit. What datapath width the chip has then only tells how many parallel data bits it provides after the row and column has been addressed, read: how many of those chips you need to make up one complete 64-bit-wide data set.
So to build a VXpro+ compliant 64-MByte DIMM side, you either need to have 8x(8Mx8) or 4x(8Mx16), with the double-width chips having the same address matrix size. Double sided DIMMs just have twice the chip count, connecting to two memory banks. Single-bank 128-MByte DIMMs like your "#1" DIMM are 8x(16Mx8) or 4x(16Mx16) or 16x(32Mx4), each of which has a larger address matrix than the chipset can handle.
So if your "#2" DIMM actually is double sided with four chips per side, that should be fine too. I never tried one of these though.
regards, Peter
Easy
06-17-2002, 07:33 PM
Brilliant Peter - thank you
And the SDRAM interleave on MVP3 - or shall I post that question separately?
Peter M
06-18-2002, 04:57 AM
Hehe, I thought I leave out the fact that SDRAM chips internally have 2 or 4 banks (64-MBit or larger devices always have 4). Just to avoid confusing people any more.
Chipsets can make intelligent use of this fact by interleaving access to these banks. This hides some of the access latency, hence makes things faster.
So with technically correct DIMMs, you set your stuff to 4-bank interleave. There is some cheap noname DIMM stuff around that won't run interleaved mode no matter what you do - these are highly suspicious, if bought new return them.
regards, Peter
Easy
06-18-2002, 04:15 PM
Think I'm still (sort of) with you... :)
I'd assumed for interleaving the mem chips had to be "the same" without knowing what that meant in the kind of detail you've given here - ie, I thought you probably couldn't interleave, say, a 64Mb stick with a 128Mb...
Now, would I be right in thinking they have to be configured similarly, ie same chip geometry: (addressmatrix-size x datapath-width) which gives you the chip geometry in brackets but could be different total DIMM bank size...?
or can you interleave (less restrictions) as long as they're same technology - ie, 64Mbit...?
or can you interleave without any of these restrictions...?
Bottom line: could I interleave the 2 DIMMs I already have in the MVP3 (described above) for faster mem access?
I think this really will be the end of the (free) lessons - for now....!;):)
Easy
Peter M
06-18-2002, 04:40 PM
See, I warned you it'd be confusing.
The VIA chipsets interleave the SDRAM device's _internal_ banks. You can have one single sided DIMM and enable 4-bank interleaving. This is nothing to do with the externally visible memory banks aka DIMM sides.
In consequence, the DIMMs may be very different and you can still have that enabled. You just shouldn't mix technology below 64 MBits per chip with the newer ones, because you'd then mix 2-bank and 4-bank devices.
regards, Peter
Easy
06-18-2002, 05:44 PM
Shouldn’t make assumptions, eh…? ("I think this’ll be the end of the free lessons....") This sure is confusing...
What I think I know now is:
DIMM#1 above: 8x(16Mx8) has 8 chips, each of which has a 16MBit matrix (rows x columns), reading data from any address in the matrix defined by it's row/column in letters and numbers (which at last makes sense of memory resource addresses: eg A000 or D1FFFFFF) through an 8-bit wide data path...?
Each of those 8 chips is 128MBit, with a 128-Bit-wide data path...
The VXPro+ can't use it 'cos it's address matrix is too big...
Internally, the address matrix (rows and columns) will be arranged into 4 banks which can be interleaved INTERNALLY (not with memory addresses from OTHER DIMMs), to make memory access faster... this is getting difficult... by "hiding access latency": which I'll think of for now as maybe something like "hiding (CPU) clock wait cycles".... (don't worry if it's not... !)
DIMM#2 also has 8 chips, but they're arranged (externally, on either side of the stick) in 2 banks: 4 chips per bank, each chip having an 8MBit matrix, through an 8-Bit-wide datapath. Internally, also arranged into 4 banks, which can also be interleaved.
So, I'll enable SDRAM interleaving then...!!!
Either you enjoy doing this stuff (teaching...), or you're incredibly patient....
Whatever: many thanks - hope it's been interesting to others too,
Easy:)
Peter M
06-19-2002, 04:51 AM
You're getting closer ... :)
Your DIMM #1 uses 8 pcs 16M-matrix chips, each with an 8-bit datapath for a total width of 64 bits as required for any DIMM. That's what 8x (16Mx8) means. The VXpro+ can't handle the 16M-matrix.
Your DIMM #2, if it truly has 4 chips on each side, them being 8M-matrix 16-bit-datapath SDRAM devices. (64-bit total datapath, remember?) The 8M matrix is the VXpro+'s maximum.
SDRAM has access latency - meaning if you just addressed a certain bank, row and column within one SDRAM chip, you must wait a while before you access that bank again. Access to a different internal bank does not have to wait. Hence the performance gain from interleaving.
regards, Peter
Easy
06-19-2002, 03:08 PM
I thought this was complicated (and a bit confusing) 'til I looked at this one:
Interleaving on MVP3 tested with SiSoft (not a 'real' test, I gather..) gave a slight boost to mem data transfer rates:
ALU/RAM bandwith from 146Mb/sec to 158Mb/sec
Float FPU/RAM bandwith from 151Mb/sec to 164Mb/sec
All running fine...
Thanks again, Peter :)
Peter M
06-19-2002, 04:05 PM
That's a ten percent boost, certainly not bad for $0 and without doing beyond-specification things to your hardware.
Regarding the other thread ... the rules of PCI are actually much simpler than those of SDRAM. Try again :)
regards, Peter
Easy
06-19-2002, 08:55 PM
Plenty folded up magazine supporting the underside of the m'board, a gentle crackling sound as each end of the DIMM entered the slot - while the other end came out...
Pushed as hard as I dared... held my breath, pushed HARDER.... CLICK...! That wasn't a crack was it...? Oh god..., I don't think so...
All back together then... power on...BLEEP! Pause... BINGO..!
128Mb SDRAM in me old VXpro+...!!!
Just from booting into Win98 and opening a few word docs, with hyperlinks, Excel, etc, I can see the speed boost...
And that's just running the Series 1 Pentium 200 (@ 66MHz x 3)
You're an excellent man, Peter - can't thank you enough...! Now to find that Cyrix....
Is CPU described as "Cyrix MIIv 333Mhz" the one I want?
Easy :)
Peter M
06-20-2002, 04:41 AM
Congrats!
"v" suffix MII would be perfect, since these are the later VIA made ones that have a 20 percent lower power consumption, easing up on voltage regulator stress. Non-v ones do work fine as well though (proper cooling provided), I've seen it personally.
You need to keep an eye on the exact flavor. There are several varieties in bus speed, multiplier and voltage within the same performance rating grade.
What you need is an MII(v)-333 2.9V 75 MHz 3.5x, not a 83 MHz 3.0x, and also not a 2.2V one.
regards, Peter
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