128Mb DIMM card recognized as 32Mb

[DudesWest]

I have a VT-502 motherboard in a 166Mhz machine (yes old, but it does what I need). It has 2 DIMM and 4 SIMM slots. I was given a 128Mb card, but when I remove the SIMM cards and install the 128Mb card in either DIMM location, the system only recognizes it as 32Mb. I'm not sure what memory type the 128Mb is. If it matters, the BIOS is Award v4.15PG. How do I get the system to recognize the larger memory card? HELP!:(

[Sterling_Aug]

Apperently your motherboard can only support 32 MByte DIMM's. Most of the older systems did not have the capability to support the newer high capacity RAM chips because of the extremely high price that RAM cost a few years ago. RAM cost over $5 per MB back then, so a 128 MB stick was $600+ dollars and few manufacturers thought that anyone would buy them.

[Anonymous Luser]

Not to mention you need to probably use PC-66/EDO SDRAM. Your slots may be able to handle more but not of PC100/133.

[Peter M]

Sorry Luser, no. An absolute, really big No.

It's all a matter of per-chip density in the SDRAM chip, not its rated PCxxx maximum speed.

regards, Peter

[Ankerson]

It will take 2x128mb Dimms. For 256mb

They have to be PC66 or PC100 though.

Read the manual to make sure the memory is set to PC 66. It won't take PC133.





http://www.fica.com/techsupport/faq/Socket7/VA503A.stm

[deadkenny]

As Peter said, it's the chip density that's the issue, not whether it's PC100 or PC133. Architecturally those are the same, it's just the speed setting that differs.

BTW, is that 128MB stick single or double sided? You might have a 32MB limit per bank (two banks per DIMM slot). In that case you might be able to use a 64MB stick, as long as it's double sided (32MB per bank).

[Ankerson]

I guess nobody read my post and the link to the FIC FAQ link I posted. :rolleyes:


Yes he can use PC66 and PC100 DIMMs.

[Peter M]

Oh well ... Ankerson, it's VT502, not VA503.

We have an old Intel 430VX chipset here, incapable of addressing SDRAM chips above 16 MBits.

Again, that's size per chip. Whether these chips are PC66, PC100 or even PC133 speed grade doesn't matter. Size does.

Your limit is 16 MBits per chip, 16 MBytes per DIMM side, 32 MBytes per (double sided) DIMM.

regards, Peter

[Ankerson]

It takes 64mb Dimms, not 128.





ftp://ftp.fica.com/manuals/motherboards/Vt-502/




2). Install System RAM Modules
DRAM and SDRAM
The working space of the computer is the Random Access Memory (RAM). The system cannot act upon data unless it is loaded into RAM. When more memory is added, the working memory of the computer is larger, thereby increasing total performance.

[checkThe VT-502’s RAM is comprised of four industry standard 72?pin Single In?line Memory Modules (SIMMs) and two 168?pin Dual In?line Memory Modules (DIMMs). Each SIMM socket supports from 4 to 128MB FPM (Fast Page Mode) and high-speed EDO (Extended Data Out) DRAM. Each DIMM socket is able to support up to 64MB EDO DRAM and lightning-fast SDRAM (Synchronous DRAM).

SDRAM is an advanced new memory technology that boosts overall system performance with its ability to synchronize all operations with the processor clock signal. This makes the implementation of control interfaces easier, and speeds up column access time. SDRAM features an on?chip burst counter that can be utilized to increment column addresses for very fast burst access, which means that SDRAM allows new memory access to be initiated before the preceding access has been finished.

Before making DRAM upgrades you should verify the type and speed of the RAM currently installed from your dealer. Installing mixtures of RAM types other than those described in this manual, will have unpredictable results.

[Ankerson]

Peter Missel,

And?

[BigBlue66]

Another issue could be that the chipset only recognizes 2-clock SDRAM. Most if not all SDRAM sold nowadays is 4-clock.

I had the same thing happen to me, running an Atrend motherboard with the i430VX series chipset. Not only would it only cache 64mb of RAM, it would only recognize 2-clock SDRAM. When I installed any kind of current day SDRAM, it would only read it as one-fourth its actual size.

If you can find some 2-clock SDRAM, it might just solve your problem.

[Ankerson]

He is trying to use 168pin DIMMS, not SDRAM.

[Peter M]

BigBlue66, that's not the problem, 4-clock vs. 2-clock SDRAM was an issue back in the old days, all SDRAM chips you get today is of the "right" type - except that they're way too large. See below.

Ankerson, now what do you incredibly bright guy think is the technology on such a 168-pin DIMM? Answer: SDRAM.

Before I let you turn this into a pissing match (again ... grow up please), here's the scoop.

Intel 430VX has only 11 address lines on its memory address bus. Now since 64-MBit and larger SDRAM technology uses at least twelve, the chipset can't address them, hence sees only half of the actual capacity, or even less, depending on how many address lines aren't connected. Period. No way of discussing that away.

Back in ancient times, there were some inventive SDRAM DIMMs that used more than 16 chips. These were twice as high as today's DIMMs, and were available at up to 64 MBytes on a 32-chip arrangement built from 16-MBit SDRAM chips. These were ridiculously expensive at the time, had strong compatibility problems thanks to the high chip count, and have soon vanished for both reasons. Back in those days, you'd resort to EDO DIMMs instead, these were available up to 64 MBytes and usable on 430VX. The slower technology allowed the high chip count without stability problems.

Normal DIMMs have 16 chips maximum (18 with ECC), and with Intel 430VX's capabilites, you don't get more than 32 MBytes per DIMM. End of story.

regards, Peter

[Ankerson]

Peter Missel,

I posted the link to the Motherboard Manual.

It says that board will take 64mb Dimms. That's 2x64mb for 128mb. One 64mb Dimm in each slot. That makes two.



The Manual states it will take 64mb Dimms, 168pin, 2x64mb

[Peter M]

See my above post. Read it. Then you'll see what 64-MByte DIMMs that old manual is talking about.

[Ankerson]

I read it and don't see your point.

He can use 64mb PC66 Dimms with out any issues or PC100 if he wants to. They will work.

[BigBlue66]

Hey thanks for clearing that up, Pete. All I know is what the Atrend tech support told me about the 2-clock vs. 4-clock stuff.

[Peter M]

Ankerson, you've demonstrated earlier to what length of ignorance you go to avoid being proven wrong, but it's a fact. The chipset can't do it, and sentences in old manuals don't make the missing hardware feature appear out of thin air either.

I'll use shorter sentences, maybe you get it then.

* Today's DIMMs fit no more than 16 chips. 8 bits make a byte. That means for 64 MBytes, you need to use at least 32-MBit technology SDRAM. This doesn't exist, the industry transitioned from 16-MBit to 64-MBit back then. So we need to use 64-MBit SDRAM devices.

* 64-MBit SDRAM chips _all_ are 12x9 rows x columns (requiring 12 address lines) and 4-bank (requiring another two address lines for bank select).

* Now try to connect that to the Intel 430VX chipset. The latter has no more than 13 memory bus address lines. You need 12+2, you got 11+2, now what?

Whatever the manual says, the hardware, ON CHIPSET LEVEL ALREADY, definitely can't do it. The alternatives, as I said yesterday already which you chose to ignore, are to use an EDO DIMM, or an old 32-chip double height SDRAM DIMM.

regards, Peter

[Ankerson]

Peter Missel,

The reason I keep saying that it will work is because I used to referb alot of older systems for resale. And have used PC66 and PC100 on alot of older systems and got it to work.

I have a Old Amptron motherboard, a PM9100 that I am using 2 64mb PC100 Dimms on now. It's not the same chipset but it's old. I have a P200mmx@266mhz on it. Big HSF.:D I think it will do 300mhz. :r

I have always followed what the manuals said about memory on those old systems and it worked, most of the time.

I just got rid of the last of my junk pile, had over 50 systems, all older AT stuff. Socket 7 and Super 7 motherboards. Thank god.:D

[Peter M]

Ah, so we're at the "tell completely unrelated stuff to prove my point" stage now.

Amptron PM9100 (aka PC-Chips M571 btw) uses the TXpro-II chipset (aka SiS 5598). That one is capable of using 64-MBit SDRAM devices, been there, done that. You can even use double sided 128-MByte DIMMs since they use the same chip technology. No news here.

So how often do I have to repeat the fact that Intel 430VX definitely is incapable of running SDRAM technology above 16-MBit? Same for VIA Apollo VP-1 aka VXpro and SiS 5571.

These all are one generation older than Intel TX, VIA VPX aka VXpro+, SiS 5581/82/97/98, which all run 64-MBit technology.

If you believe in old manuals, then why not read Intel's for a change? Excerpt from Intel 430VX datasheet (Intel document no. 290553, pg. 50):

"The TVX supports unbuffered DIMM Modules with SDRAMs. The twelve multiplexed address lines (MA[11:0])
allow the TVX to support 1Mx64, 2Mx64, and 4Mx64 DIMM's."

4Mx64 bits is 32 MBytes. If your math differs, you're in the wrong universe.

regards, Peter

[Ankerson]

It's not an Intel motherboard, it's a FIC.

[otheos]

He's talking about the chipset's manual :)

[Ankerson]

I know, and I don't care about the chipset manual. Different brands of motherboards are different, even using the same chipset.

That's why you go by the manual. In the FAQ it has the answers, it can use PC66 and PC100 DIMMS.

[otheos]

Not even god would convience you that this chipset is not able to use more that 32MB sticks. He's right you know, ants now that VX chipsets won't run more than 32MB dimms :)

I guess not trusting the chipset white paper but trusting the motherboard manual makes more sense to you, as if there is a way to overcome the limitations of the chipset.

Anyway, yes the VX will use PC66/100/133 dimms up to 32MB per stick but no more :)

You can't know everything :)

[Ankerson]

otheos,

Nobody knows everything. :D

But I do know that different manufactors build differnt features and work arounds into the motherboards. All other things being the same, as the same chipset.

FIC is different from Intel is differnt from Abit is different from Asus etc.

Nothing is written in stone when it comes to Computers.

[Ankerson]

That's why I said it should work, it wouldn't hurt to try it at least.

[Peter M]

... but being such an airhead as you certainly hurts. We've had our laugh, please shut up now.

Oh, now I remember what makes you shut up every time ... here's your challenge for this week: Bring ONE Intel 430VX chipset mainboard that accepts a normal, 8 chips or less, 64-MByte SDRAM DIMM and uses it at its full capacity. If you manage, I'll eat it.

[Ankerson]

If I could find one, I would. But it's not like they are everywhere today

[Peter M]

Why did I know before you'd chicken out? Come on, if you just sold a pile of fifty, there should be at least one near you still - or do your previous customers not let you come near them anymore?

[Ankerson]

I didn't sell them, most were dead systems that I striped down for parts. Don't remember seeing any 430vx boards. Most of the socket 7 boards were SIS or VIA. But I forgot about the Socket 3 boards. Junk Pile.:D

[Peter M]

You also forgot that Intel 430VX is a socket-5/socket-7 chipset. You're so predictable ... zero knowledge, big claims, no substance, and in the end not the balls to admit it either.

[Ankerson]

Originally posted by Peter Missel
You also forgot that Intel 430VX is a socket-5/socket-7 chipset. You're so predictable ... zero knowledge, big claims, no substance, and in the end not the balls to admit it either.


Really, :rolleyes:


At least I know how to read a motherboard manual. :rolleyes:

Unlike someone else, so it seems.:rolleyes:

BIOS Eng, yea right. :rolleyes:

[Ankerson]

Peter Missel,

Oh and I just asked about 6 people that I work with, all who have been in the business as long or longer than I have. Showed them the manual and they all seem to agree that it will take 64mb Dimms.

We are talking about MCSE's, CCNA's here.


Needed a second opinion.

[Peter M]

So I challenge all seven of you - turn up with an Intel 430VX board that runs 64-MByte DIMMs.

What you still didn't notice is that the original poster tried already, and found that it does NOT work, size limit per DIMM is 32 MBytes. You may be able to read manuals, but you're completely incapable of accepting raw facts and figuring something out from there. Ever heard of researching something?

http://www.wimsbios.com/HTML1/faq.html#q30
http://www.stud.fernuni-hagen.de/q3998142/pcchips/faq.html#l007
http://www.plasma-online.de/index.html?content=http%3a//www.plasma-online.de/english/help/solutions/vx_chipset_sdram.html

Even the folks selling memory say it won't work ...

http://www.kingston.com/tools/umg/umg08.asp

Odd, ain't it? The world and their dog, they're all idiots, only you seven brave men waving that god given manual can magically do it. Strange also that the original poster has already found out there is a 32-MByte limit per DIMM, proving you wrong to start with and making your entire quest completely pointless anyway.

You'd rather cut your foot off than admit it, wouldn't you?

[Ankerson]

He tried a 128mb Dimm, not 64mb.

[Ankerson]

Originally posted by DudesWest
I was given a 128Mb card, but when I remove the SIMM cards and install the 128Mb card in either DIMM location, the system only recognizes it as 32Mb!


He tried a 128mb dimm...

[Peter M]

So? If there were a 64-MByte limit as you claim, wouldn't the system show 64 MBytes not 32?

There are two flavors of 128-MByte DIMMs, those with sixteen SDRAM chips 12x9 each, and those with eight chips 12x10. With a chipset addressing 11x9, you'll get 32 MBytes with the former and 16 with the latter.

Simple elementary school math, technical facts, all just as irrelevant as unknown to Ankerson and his six brave riders of the MCSE. Oh, now that explains why you believe so much in written documents.

Follow the links I gave for second, third, forth and, if you know how to operate google, many more opinions.

You still failed to explain how something that is technically impossible on a chipset - as documented by its manufacturer - should be achieved.

But I don't expect anything else from you but a reiteration (word too complicated? sorry...) of your same old blurb about that manual page ...

[Peter M]

Here's another one ...

http://www.spacewalker.com/german/faq/chipset2.htm#hd004