Does anybody here plan on building a P4?

[giant69]

Im asking this because Id like to hear users thoughts on the future of this platform. Yes, Im aware of the negative buzz surrounding this processor about performance when compared to the Athlon but I think its only a matter of time until mobo makers make a board that will harness the power of this system. Id like to hear your thoughts...steve http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[krusty]

Let me think?? Spend a hell of a lot more money for little or no gain......
ahhhhhh???????

NO!!!

[thekingofpain]

Id really like too, but it isnt looking as positive as it could "at the moment"...

[LiLRiceBoi]

from the benches that i have seen, the price doesnt seem like its worth it.

[AMD kicks]

Even though I don't plan to build a P4 system, I think we enthusiasts should stop bashing it no matter what kind of value it is. We need the P4 to have a strong image to put pressure on AMD to either push the thunderbirds more or have dual thunderbirds system to compete with the P4. Right now none of AMD's chips is as fast so they will need to get dual system out fast or they will start to look like a lower end maker again. So if they are pressured more by the P4 it is good for us enthusiasts.

[Dputiger]

I'll consider it, but a few things have to change:

1) Software--If a majority of games / applications become heavily SSE2 optimized, to the point where I can EXPECT all products to utilize the P4 to the max I'd look into one. Even though a great deal of code is non-Athlon optimized, the powerful FPU on board the Athlon helps to overcome that--the P4 doesn't have a chance.

2) Price. Gotta come down.

3) Non-RDRAM - I won't buy RDRAM, period. Never. I hate Rambus.

[giant69]

Im curious to why you hate Rambus Dputiger? I agree with you that they have problems but what is the aspect of your problem with them? Is it fair to hate a company that tries to bring a new product to the market? I dont think so. They are just trying to make money, which is the goal of every company. A lot of time and money went into their products development and they have the right to try and earn a profit. I think that if Intel would have done things properly instead of their half-a$$ed way with their chipsets that Rambus would have become the standard and we would all be singing their praise! Yes, I know it was overpriced and they threatened litigation over every little thing that other manufacturers tried but, I have seen systems side by side that were exactly the same other than the fact that one had Rambus and the other had SDRAM and every benchmark showed that the Rambus system was clearly superior to the Sdram system. Do you hate nvidia now because they basically ran 3dfx out of business? Their are patent lawsuits that each company filed against the other that will be dismissed when the takeover is complete. Do you hate Maxtor because they now own Quantum and are trying to corner the H.D. market? Everything in the computer industry revolves around money, or trying to make it. I am in no way defending RAMBUS here, so please dont mistake it for that! However, if it was affordable and seemed a viable product for a system that I was trying to build you can bet your last dollar that myself and probably a majority of others would be using it! Please give me specifics..steve http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by giant69 (edited 12-21-2000).]

[giant69]

Nice response! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif Everything that you stated is true. I just wanted to make sure that I understood the reasoning behind your original statement and that you werent merely following someon elses' words as happens so often in the puter industry. I agree with you 101%...steve

[gyoung]

I was in the PC market about 6 months ago. If I were in it today I wouldn't buy a P4 and here's why:

First I look at the P4 and I see how expensive it is. I would still do what I did 6 months ago. I would buy a Socket A motherboard and a duron chip. The cost to me about $250.

With the P4 you lay out a large sum of money. New motherboard, processor, power supply, and new RAM. Then Intel is apparently going to change the socket format for the P4 at the end of next year. No upgrade path. You start with a 1.4Ghz P4 monster and you will be able to upgrade to a 1.7 or 1.8 before they change the platform on you.

Right now I've got a Duron 600. My motherboard will support up to an Athlon 1.2Ghz. I've got a large upgrade path ahead of me. I won't have to buy new hardware to double my cpu speed. If I wanted to I could pick up the 1.2 monster for $275!!! The P4 prices are almost 3 to 4 times that!!! I don't see them coming down that far either.

[Ultima]

I've looked on pricewatch.
The cheapest P IV 1.5Ghz it reports is 848$$.

Then I calculated the next:
Amd Tbird 1.2Ghz, 256Mb pc133, abit kt7 raid mobo.
Those together were a little over 600$$, so I think my answer would be:

NO http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

But seriously, this is way too overprized to be attractive for home users. Waayyy too expensive.

Pim

[CMonster]

Yes I will build P4 systems for those who insist on it.

No I will not for me.

AMD kicks - good point!

Dputiger - I agree about the "company" but not the technology. In my mind the only thing rambus needs to storm the market is a wider bus. Look at the Geforce cards, it is the wider 256bit that gives it the edge. Same too, the PentiumIII has that 256bit path to cache, and that is the only reason it can stay close to the T-bird with its wimpy 64bit path to cache -what was AMD thinking?

Will we see 2Ghz Athlons sometime soon -who knows? but keep in mind that the upcoming AMD 64bit Sledgehammer (and Clawhammer) are supposed to be using SSE2 as well (smart move AMD!) as having native 16/32bit processing and will reportedly scale high into the mhz.

I want a dual Athlon board with 64bit PCI slots!

[ablang]

I'm not upgrading to a P4. I'm going to U/g to a AMD K7 Duron 800 Mhz for performance/price reasons. Oh, and because I want to take advantage of the low cost of PC133 RAM (from EDO SIMMS). I want to get 256MB of RAM for about $120 or less.

[Dputiger]

The GeForce cards are only 128 bit to the core...that gives them peak memory bandwidth of 6.4 Gb/S (for the Ultra).

The NV20 also carries a 128-bit core path. You are correct however--NVidia DID invent this technology. Also, as I understand it, the CuMine is only 256-bit to its own L2 cache--not out to the rest of the chip or the bus.

[Dputiger]

Fair question, Giant:

I hate RAMBUS for the following reasons:

1) They full-out lied about the performance of their product.

Billed as superior to SDRAM, Rambus, in fact, almost never out-performs it. Many of the tests that show RDRAM out-performing SDRAM are done on 440BX motherboards where the excellent design of the mobo itself helped RDRAM win. (this is pre-Pentium4)

2) They sue EVERYONE.

Rambus has sued every maker of SDRAM in existence. They also have threatened to sue AMD, Intel, and actually have sued Nvidia. Why? Because NVidia uses memory CONTROLLERS which Rambus claims it invented.

3) Their lawsuits are based on patents they filed in direct violation of JEDEC.

JEDEC, the consortium which developed SDRAM, is an open-source agreement between companies. RAMBUS participated in this agreement and patented certain technologies in DIRECT violation of the JEDEC agreement not to do this (which it signed).

4) Their lawsuits, if successful, will hand them the entire DRAM market.

If Rambus wins, it will own every peace of SDRAM, DDR-RAM, or RDRAM, period. No RAM can be sold without this company earning money. I'm opposed to this on principle--we DON'T need a DRAM monopoly.

So those are my reasons. I think Rambus is a scummy, proprietary company which actually manufacturers NOTHING--they are a patent firm, not a technology firm.

And no, I don't support them. Or use their technology.

[CMonster]

Dputiger - yeah, I was refering to the 256bit path to L2 (on chip) cache on the PentiumIII and the 64bit path to L2 cache on the T-bird - and that seemingly small difference causes a big difference in performance. I still wonder why AMD didn't have a wider bus there - they could have been leaps and bounds ahead in performance.

I think current rambus uses some puny little 16bit bus.

I could be mistaken about the internal bus on the Geforce cards, but I was under the impression that the nVidia chip bus was (Int/Ext)Vanta-128/64; TNT2 M64-128/64; TNT2 -128/128; TNT2 Ultra -128/128; and the Geforce were fully 256bit... I suppose they could be 256/128 from what you are saying.

Anyway, what I am saying is that rambus design looks very logical - widen the bus, I think, and they might have something there.

[RobRich]

The R-DRAM bus is effectively widen with the P4 architecture. The RAMBUS memory is utilized in a dual channel configuration, thus providing a substantial bandwidth increase. Down side is you have to install R-DRAM's in pairs.

Still, for the best combination of lowe latency and maximum bandwidth, I would recommend PC-2100 DDR in most situations. Worst part is DDR memory prices are still holding relatively high for sticks from well known vendors (crucial, corsair, etc.).

DDR memory is now costing more than PC-800 RAMBUS, which is kind of ridiculous. Any rate, prices should drop in the near future as the market gradually accepts the new VIA and AMD DDR chipsets.

Later,
Robert Richmond

[CMonster]

Well...it may be yesterday's technology but SDRAM is at an all-time low, today's Fry's add has generic PC-133 256MB for $109

[RobRich]

I definitely enjoy current PC-133 prices. At the current prices, it looks like it is time to finnally move most of my personal systems to 512 MB. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Robert Richmond

[nunyadam]

fyi todays low price at pricewatch for generic pc 133 256meg is $74 (if it will work in your board.i think it is mainly for amd's. check it out before you buy)

[RobRich]

nunyadam raises a valid concern. Some of these new 256MB sticks will only work with cetain chipsets. These sticks are built using a 32x64 module configuration. Check out this post for more info and a compatiblity list:

http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum5/HTML/004445.html

Robert Richmond