Submerged System.....

[Wiruz]

Hi - this is my very first post in Brainstorming, but I think it belongs here.

Some time ago, I read an article about someone who submerged a system into some sort of fluid, and the filled it with dry-ice, and poured liquid NO2 right on the CPU (it survived, but the mobo did not - celery).

Ever since, I have become more or less devoted in doing the same thing, with some modifications.

This is my idea:

I have a spare system (K5-90/K6-233, Rhino12 mobo, 4x4 meg 72pin, S3-64) I had intended that I wanted to use this system as an extra cow for RC5, no NIC, just HD (1.6 Caviar), Floppy and 4x CDROM.
The casing is a bit of a mess, and since I'm planing for several small "slave" computers for network rendering and Beowulf, I've been thinking about abandoning the case for future systems altogether, and mount the in some sort of "rack" way.

...back to the main topic:
what I want to do, is to take the motherboard, put it in some watertight and highly insulated casing (the guy I spoke of before, used one of those "fridge-box" people store food in on the beach) - like some flamingo box, with a lit.

Here is the big questions, that I want you to help me with:

I want it submerged in some liquid, which doesn't conduct electricity under any circumstances - I plan this project to run for a long time. The liquid must have a very low freezing temperature - so that I can put in dryice, without it freezing, or a cooling element from a freezer (my dad nows alot about that stuff, and welding, and bending, and freon...) This means that the liquid must have a freezing point of maximum -50 degrees Celsius). It has to be fairly cheap, and easy to get. and most of all, completely harmless.

If any of you, have any experience in this, I would like to hear about it. suggestions? questions?.

I plan on "documenting" the project, with images, filmclips and text on my homepage.

Any help at all will be highly appreciated

~Wiruz

[This message has been edited by Wiruz (edited 10-04-2000).]

[thekingofpain]

Saw a setup submerged in chilled mineral oil which fits the bill for cheap and easy to get, dry ice dont last long, LN is expensive and sometimes hard to find, there is a great site about such a project, ill dig around abit and see if I can find it...

[randy48]

Here's a thought, what would happen if you took your system (submerged in mineral oil) and put it into a small chest freeze. I've seen the smaller size chest freezers at yards sales for $30-$50. You'd have to drill a cabling port through the side and chaulk it inside and out, but it might work. The freezers get down to about 12-15 F. Talk to your dad, he might be able to tweak it to make it colder.
Randy

[qball]

I'm just curious, what do you expect to gain from this? Better OCing mechanism?, Faster performance? A good learning experience?

[Wiruz]

I Don't plan on overclocking, but i probably will at some stage. one of the things i am cureous about, is how long a system submerged will live.

If i find that i system can stay healthy submerged, i might built something wierd for my next system (Thunderbird, Dual, DDR Ram)

But i don't ant to risk a system like that, if all the parts started getting corroded with rust or anything.

My dad has a small freezer, ½ x ½ x ½ meters internally - and it is homebuilt and rather powerful http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

The most important question right now, is what fluid i need to use...

~Wiruz

[chuckiechan]

I buy ice cream bars at a standard station near work and they are hard as a rock. I mentioned this to the addendant and he had do idea how cold it was. I found a thermometor inside and it was 40 below (F). I'll bet if you ask around you can get one of these boxes for free or a few bucks.

Go for it!

P.S. for the ultimate chill test: crushed dry ice and acetone! Dangerously cold!

[Wiruz]

hmm - mineral oil - is it also known as "Baby-oil?"

~Wiruz

- The whole idea sprung from one of those boxes - i saw one in a local store - -21 C - and best of all - no codensation....

~Wiruz

[BFlurie]

Just hope you don't have to get in and mess w/the hardware! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

[jad1097]

I also saw the system submerged in mineral oil but I can't find the link.

[jad1097]

DOH!! DP http://www.zdnet.com.au/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2524416,00.html
http://www.aaz.mtci.ne.jp/~kfuno/

I think this is what I was looking for but the links are dead. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum3/HTML/003280.html



[This message has been edited by jad1097 (edited 10-04-2000).]

[crockett]

well someone posted a link to this site the other day I forget who..but it has a pic of a computer that someone built where the internals are submerged in oil....here you go
http://www.virtualhideout.net/cool_case/index07.shtml

[Wiruz]

Thanx crockett - after what i can see - that is exactly what i want to do - i just wanna cool the ******* at the same time, so i'm going for a highly insulative matetial instead of glass - can't remember what it is called in english - white stuff, made from some kind of foam, it consists of several small white air filled spheres...

btw - after what i could read from his email, he seems to be norwegian, my luck - denmark and norway speak virtually the same language...

Thanx again - i'm going to post when my little project starts!

~Wiruz

[crockett]

yea I think his case was made out of plexy-glass...but too bad there wasn't much info just the pics http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif ....you might look back threw the forms here because someone was just talking about this same thing last week I belive....it was either in the general tech or the community forum

[Wiruz]

Crockett:

i've moved ahead of schedule:
http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/Forum7/HTML/001068.html

And i've got an extra system just like this - ready to crunch and oc

K6-2 300 on FIC PA-2013

....i love it when a good plan comes together

~Wiruz

[Gomer]

Wiruz--I believe the material you are reffering to is aerogel.
http://eande.lbl.gov/ECS/Aerogels/satoc.htm
http://www.llnl.gov/IPandC/op96/07/7d-aer.html
http://fourier.mech.virginia.edu/~microhx/aerogellinks.html
http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/00148.html

[falcompsx]

why not seal the case airtight completely, no fans for air gettingin and out of the case, and lock th ecase in a freezer, to chill the air with no chance of condensation since the water will be locked out. It could work, and would be relatively safe, right an external cdrom and floppy and you have a functional system!

[Wiruz]

probably...

Buit if i put the mobo and cpu in the freezer, it would still be a bit hotter than the surrounding air, and therfore no cendensation will form on it - right?

[Jv44~Siggi]

Do you intend to induce a vacuum inside the sealed system prior to putting it in the freezer? If not you are going to get condensation. The CPU, mobo, hard-drives etc will heat up and cool down when you power-up/power-down, even if you leave the system running permanently. The little air/moisture trapped inside the case will, at some point, condense under those conditions and possibly cause probs.
Just my two cents worth, and probably wrong.

[sns]

If condensation was a real problem (even if only minute amounts) you could try using "silica gel" I think that is the name you know the crystal type stuff they put in small packets to keep your vitamins, new shoes in storage, maybe even some of the hardware you buy for the pc. You can actually place it in the microwave for a short time to heat it up to remove moisture if it is a bit old & used up. I think there is a commercial type one in supermarkets for wardrobes.

[acid_burn~187]

Vodka anyone!? hehe... man. think of it. alchool. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif liquid, low freezing... not sure bout the electricity, but i don't think it's that good.

gl

~Paul

[Mr_Wobble]

I know you want to go sub-zero, but if it was just a case of running a system extremely cool, then I remember something about pure water being unable to conduct electricity. Sounds bizarre, but true. I've seen a demonstration where a working TV set was lowered into a tank of pure water. http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/redface.gif Apparently water only conducts electricity when there are impurities in the water.

Have Fun!

Mr_Wobble http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[jad1097]

Yes it is the minerals in water that conduct electricity not the water itself.

[krusty the klown]

Only trouble is that water is such a good solvent that tiny amounts of virtually anything will dissolve in it, so the water would have to be changed fairly regularly, or have some sort of conductivity meter that alerted you if the water was becoming impure.

Reckon some sort of mineral oil would be better than water.

[Rat]

heck, if your'e looking for a way to keep the CPU nice and cool, maybe an old drag-racers' trick would work: It's called a Cool Can. What we do is take a can and coil a copper line inside the can, put ice in the can and hook up the copper line to the fuel inlet to the carb. This would cool the fuel very well for short runs. My idea would be to take a heat sink for a CPU and weave small copper tubing thru the heat sink, use heat sink mastic for the thermal cunduction. Hook up the copper tubing to a small refridgerator compressor. The only thing to modify would be the orientation of the MOBO. Would have to have the MOBO horizontal with the heatsink on the bottom side and a drip pan under it. Bet that CPU would run real cool. Just would have to fire up the compressor about ten minutes before you fire up the machine http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

very impractical, but if you want a project....

Rat...

[johnqp]

How about this:
Your dad makes a small(if possible) condenser for cooling that can attach to the exterior of the box.
Inside the box you use a continuous weave of flexible tubing across the MB and CPU that can conduct heat well (the tubing that is). The tubing can be filled with what ever interesting cooling liquid you decide on. The coolant and tubing conduct heat away from the MB & CPU and direct it to the condenser where it exchanges the heat and sends the coolant back in. That way you don't have to worry about corrosion or conduction problems and depending on the condenser and coolant used you can make it like a freezer in that box.
Just a thought!

[Philip1952]

Think about this don't submerge the box. Take the freezer route and use automotive antifreeze. A small pump and a heater core from a car also. Cut hole in side of case, make some duct work up and blow some 0 degree air across the board assy. You could arange some metal inside to direct the air flow where ever you need it.
Just a thought.

[CujoRbd]

Idea:

Take out all the cards/wires and cover the entire thing (especially the pins) with a bunch of petroleum jelly. Then stick the cards back in and submerge the whole thing in a chilled mixture of water and antifreeze.

This will probably give you the best results for the least amount of money.

And if you want to spend some money, look into liquid Freon, as I've heard that this is the best substance to use for cooling something (it gets about -80 degrees F before turning solid).

Also, check this page out for tips on how to use the petroleum jelly:  http://www.agaweb.com/coolcpu/build.htm


Good luck!


Cujo

[-VictoryFleet-]

Well, Al Gore made Freon illegal cause' it ruins the ozone layer. They replaced it with something like R-22 (probably not right) that doesn't cool as well, but it cools pretty good. I've seen it sprayed on grass before, and it froze and crystalized. Pretty Cool (no pun intended)B)

[PaRoGab]

There are several fluids that you could immerse the motherboard in. One of the easiest although no longer available would be Freon. It will not conduct electricity, nor will it eat away at any components/materials. The most common replacement for R-12 and R-22 is H 134-a (at least I think that's what it's called). Another fluid that could be used is PAO (polyalphaolefin). It is the base stock for synthetic oils like Mobil 1 and is being phased in as the replacement hydraulic fluid for most Air Force aircraft. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. We were using it to cool electronics, and the neat thing was that it didn't affect plastics/materials nor did it conduct electricity. It will stay a liquid until about -65 ° below zero where it becomes slushy.

Immersing the computer in PAO would solve several problems. Even if the air was very cold, you would probably still need a fan to get decent heat transfer or at least, make sure the motherboard is vertical. Horizontal surfaces are horrible in comparison to vertical surfaces when relying upon convective cooling. However, immersing it in PAO the convective currents would (probably) try to maintain a uniform temperature. Sticking this in a freezer at 40 degrees below zero would keep everything nice and cold.

But, there is a big problem with cooling everything. All the capacitors that you see on the motherboard will start to act extremely funky when you get to extremely low temperatures. In fact, I don't believe your system will work at all at that low a temperature. I've spent about the last 10 years working on electronics that go in Air Force aircraft. A lot of problems that people are starting to complain about were things that I've been waiting to see happen. So if I were going to do something like this my selection would be in the following order:

Immerse in liquid Freon and stick in a very cold freezer. However, there would be a good bit of engineering required for the box so it wouldn't leak and the EPA has stuck a huge tax on Freon.

Immerse in PAO as described above, however all mechanical stuff would still have to the outside. PAO can easily be found on the net.

Try ethylene glycol and water, however you have the same problems as above and that there are no guarantees about the effect that the ethylene glycol will have on the plastics.

Simply stick the computer in the freezer with a fan on it.

All of my suggestions have serious problems, I can easily write a term paper for one of my graduate engineering classes about the advantages and disadvantages of almost any cooling scheme. The truth is, that the CPU is what you really need to keep cool (Yeah I know there are some other things) by trying to cool entire computer to extremely low temperatures will probably just make things worse. Just my two cents.

[-VictoryFleet-]

I agree. If I remember correctly, colder atoms stand almost still and therefor make it harder to pass along electrons effectively. Here's what I recommend. Use mineral oil as recommended above. Then use PAO, Freon, or such in a radiator like heat exchanger the size of a peltier. Then use thermal paste and tape to attach it to the peltier (be careful the tape does not touch the cold plate. Attach the peltier to the CPU (you're main area of cooling). You can repeat this for your video card, but at the temperatures the oil keeps it at, you shouldn't have problems. Now attach the heat exchanger(s) to a radiator with a powerful fan behind it (like in http://www.3DCOOL.com 's water cooling device). Then have, on the side of the case that is affected least by heat, have a large exchanger wired in a similar fashion. Some have said that peltiers can create temperatures that generate condensation, your case is submerged, so that will not affect the processor. If you don't understand, show me what you want the case to look like (or a photograph), and I'll show you what I'm talking about. Remember, If you don't use a heat exchanger like I recommend, a heatsink is another good idea...

[shady]

chuckiechan can you explain more on the crushed ice and aceton? what kind of ice what kind of aceton, how cold it gets, how to achieve that?

[hai]

I like this idea, but it ought to be very messy and expensive to maintain such a system running 7/24 under deep subzero. If you want the best performance on the planet by overclocking a submerged Athlon/P4 1.4GHz system, that makes sense. If you are overclocking anything else, the money is better saved for a faster processor.