AMD or Intel; who will rule the world?

[Win_98]

Well I enjoy seeing Intel suffer for awhile but I also think it kind of boring seeing only 2 different maker of CPU.
BAcK then there use to be 4 or 5 different one, slowly they die leaving only 2 of these badasses. Intel I think will do anything to dominate the CPU market. pretty freaking obvious with the recent PIV 1.4 and 1.5Mhz.
Hey what the hell happen to 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3gig, did they suddently just gave up on the PIII line of cpu?! so then again when we thought that Intel will be put out of business we were dead wrong, they're strong like microsoft the ruler of the universe. Well there still alot of folk with this Intel etched in their brain that they have 100 percent trust its a quality cpu. How they look at AMD as cheap and a poor man cpu! So like I said Intel are aimed at those rich little folk, while AMD is still targeted at middle class folk who work very hard to earn this kind of money. Well I don't have alot of money to spend you know the cheaper the better, hell I got myself plenty of Cyrix around just for backup purpose or if someone once a really cheap computer built then I'm the man.

[Techie Dude]

Well, at the end of the day, it looks like Intel and AMD have beaten off the rest!.....

Intel always has a name for being well made, and reliable CPU`s. AMD in my mind is more cheaply made, but offers the same sort of spec, if not higher!

I think that both can survive in this market, since some people prefer quality against speed. Overall, I don`t think you can really go wrong with either! Ok, i know people are just gonna post on here that they like what ever make! I`m not interested in that! People will just try an justify what they bought.........kinda pointless!!!!!

I think this arguement could apply to anything, and people will always try and justify what they bought! So what do you like better, a Ford or a Dodge??????????

Christ, here we go again!

[This message has been edited by Techie Dude (edited 12-08-2000).]

[NDD]

Since AMD got Argon (Athlon) core, Intel got nothing to oppose. And those shiny new P4 with all their impressive "NetBurst" architecture hardly compete with Thunderbird running 300 MHz lower ...
From all I've seen on roadmaps, at least in the next two years only a fool will buy Intel. The only thing that weakens AMD is lack of solid stable chipsets, something like i440BX http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif, but this problem also gonna be solved with next VIA KT266, I guess, probably after it goes thru few revisions ...
Good day everyone ...

[Win_98]

But in the end there can only be 1 and that either Intel or AMD. They don't get along do they? Some some reason Intel had is alway been a step ahead of AMD. Obviously trying to put them out of business but kept failing repeatedly did you notice? While AMD had been weakened and crippled by the socket7 architecture limitation for a few yrs they did not perish and were just persistant. I think Cyrix is out of the picture for good. Intel was responsible for this, they are just too fast paced in the cpu industry. In order to compete you either have to make cpu as good as fast as Intel or go out of business immediately when you don't. Ex. alway a step behind.

[Worm]

I'm sorry ND, but obviously you are not quite educated in the breakdown of processor specs. The speed is not the only issue. If you run the P4 with Windows 98/2000/Me, I don't care what OS you have, you are not achieving the full potential of the processor. The p4 has 2 64-bit registeries, meaning, you can run 64-bit code on them. At the moment the common consumer WILL NOT have any OS or application that runs more than 32-bit code. The on-die full core speed L2 cache outperforms all previous cache chips. A lot of the early Athlon and PIII chips used 2/3, 1/2 or 1/3 core speed L2 cache chips. The P4 also includes SECC2, which contains algorythms for increased video and sound performance. These chips are targeted toward high end file servers and network based systems, not the common consumer. But you are right, you would have to be a fool to buy one, at least, if you didn't understand what you could do with it.

AMD is a very formiddable adversary for INTEL, and the presence of both makes it comfortable for computer "geeks" around the world. AMD will soon release their new processor that will one up INTEL, and then INTEL will one up AMD. This will keeps costs to the consumer down. So far, what I have seen between the two, INTEL is excellent for performance, but not good for "tweaking" they can be difficult to o/c and just down right picky sometimes. AMD offers SLIGHTLY lower quality, very little difference I might add, but allows the user to modify their system all they want. Both are good companies, and both deserve recognition for their contributions to PC market.
Worm

[NDD]

1. To WORM
Dude !
I deal with comps since I 12 years old, I lived more than twice since then (27), and believe me I know enought about architecture.
P4 offers exellent one, but the problem on a market nowdays, as you said and I agree, is a total lack of apps that use such a potential.
An only prog that really useful and utilizes only SSE(1) is PhotoShop, SSE2 is great but I don't know yet how much things gonna be optimized for it. Currently speaking, T-Bird paradoxally takes on P4 being just one step behind, I have no doubt, and I already saw, that new architecture + SSE2 optimization will boost the things a lot, a really LOT (you can search for MPEG4 encoding issues, on sharkyextreme/tomshardware) ...
BUT ...
Let AMD release new processor, of P4 class, of course, only than we'll be able to compare between to equals ...
And I can't agree with you about processors' quality, "new" line since first Athlons is exellent ...
It has to be mentioned, that Pentium 3 is quite always better then T-Bird running Win2k, and this is due to better use of L2 cache, which uses 256 bit ATC on P3 vs. "old" 64 bit on AMDs.
You can't forget about price, too http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
And final - such a competition is good for companies, and best for us, the Customers ...

btw, it's not SECC2, it's SSE2, SECC2 is a package for Xeons http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif and SSE2 is Streamed Single Instruction Multiple Data Extentions http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Best Regards ...

2. To Win_98
I don't think at the end gonna stay only one chip maker, Intel and AMD goes fine together enabling us get better processors for your needs ... And Cyrix makes now quite nice chips for low-cost workstations, and VIA gonna care for Cyrix to stay with us too (VIA Cyrix Matthew, for example) ...
Adios ...

[otheos]

Something to add:

SSE/3DNow and all these proprietary FPU instructions are only good for the consumer market.

Research computers need the maximum raw FPU they can get. Number crunching programs are 99% written by the researchers ourselves and believe me, nobody optimises for specific set of instructions. This is the reason why the trend for Athlons as research machines will cary on now that the P4 is so weak, for exactly the same reasons why we ran P2's instead of K6-2/3's.

I am not sure which part of the market the P4 targets. In Office applications it's slower than the P3, in raw FPU it's desperate, so the only thing left is the SSE. Now, you said server.....? Will Oracle use SSE? I am not really sure where this CPU fits to be honest, one thing is for sure, scince/home users will never use it, Unix servers will not either, NT servers... well there is some competition (SMP p3's, SMP Xeons, "SMP" Athlons later). Not sure at all.

[NDD]

Otheos - I'm with you http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

to Worm :
I saw you posting on AMD vs Intel Poll too ...
What exactly do you have against AMD ?
Did you ever tried one, or you basing on charts from the web ?
I didn't believe AMD can release something good since I had not very nice experience with K6-2, but K7 core doing GREAT! job, I remember I was DAZZLED when I saw low-cost Duron 600 outperforms P3 667 ...
The only problem I don't use AMD on servers is their heat, I prefer cooler P3, and it's also runs better on Win2k, as I mentioned before ...

c u ...

[TechJumper]

I have had some experience with both companies, and here is my view:


AMD and Intel have all of the following in common-

---Good Products
---Good documentation
---Good warentee
---Good Tech support


But out of all this, I have discovered that AMD seems to be a little more innovative than Intel, as they freely allow OC'ing, and build their products around that. Intel is comparative to IBM in the sense that it is also innovative, but it just takes forever for that company to make a move.

Now Intel is Very strong in marketing to the general public. Many of my friends at school who say they are keen on computers have no knowledge of AMD, they claim the only one they ever see advertised is Intel. I would have to agree. Intel is marketing to the morons, AMD is marketing to the Pro's. From a business view, Intel will outlive AMD because of this, and only this reason.

I like both companies, but if I was a computer tweaking, keep the top off and out on the desk with a screw driver and bud light type person http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif I would say that AMD will definatly outlive Intel.


Both companies are striving for excellence, we'll just have to see who wins the race.


Signing off,

Michael


---In regards to the initial post: It is silly to belive that these two companies will be the only competition in this industry. An industry simply cannot survive without more competition, I think we can expect to see some major advancements in this field in the near future, thus rilling up all those kids in their garages, you know the story http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by TechJumper (edited 12-11-2000).]

[Win_98]

Pentium 4 huh that a pretty funny, next Pent5,
Pent6 etc never ending retarded pentium name.
Im sick of it, make me NOT buy their cpu. Level 1 cache has been reduced to 16K wow! what accomplishment! Amazing I didn't know that shrinking it is their next generation of CPU! That some ancient architecture if you ask me which they did some research of their old 486 CPU? May as well reduce it to 8K for the P8 core known as Pentium5!LOL

[NDD]

TechJumper :
I agree with you when you're talking about marketing politics - Intel's definetely leads, when marketing for morons http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
No offense every Intel fan out there, but no one with self respect will claim that Intel's better than AMD just BECAUSE. Both processors have their dis/advantages, but let's all agree, that for now Intel released a little bit "useless" processor, which "by case" costs like hell http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif
AMD just need to be more aggressive in marketing, and it will come as they earn enought money for their products, we surely can't compare both companies budgets http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

And I ask myself too - 16k L1 cache, even running full speed ???????

And for conclusion for today (3 posts on same topic http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif ) - interesting one ... I don't remember the site where I saw it, but year 2000 was the first one in which AMD made more patent pendings then Intel (~700 vs ~500, if I remember correctly) ...

Signing off for today ...

[Dputiger]

Don't be unrealistic--the P4 has more going for it than SSE2 optimizations.

That 8K L1 cache actually DOESN'T work like a standard L1 cache. It sits behind the decoders instead in front of them and holds decoded micro-ops. That means that when the processor needs a micro-op it can grab it straight from cache rather than having to decode it again--saves MAJOR time. That's the primary function of the cache and it works well.

But yes, the bottom line is, the P4 is architecturally more advanced than the Athlon. Will it catch? I don't know yet. It's new, it's different, it may not be the future in and of itself.

But the Clawhammer will likely be more advanced than the P4, and the P5 (or whatever) will probably beat the Clawhammer. The K9 chip will likely beat the P5, etc, etc, etc.

Bottom line to me is this: Just as the Athlon inevitably proved its core superiority over the Coppermine, the P4 will inevitably prove superior to the Athlon if its adopted the way Intel wants it to be. That's just how the market works.

[Aleph1]

I see no reason for anyone to buy a P4. Unless every piece of software has SSE2 optimization (which is what intel wants), its goin down the drain. SSE2 IS its only hope. It doesnt matter how its L1 cache works, look at the realistic stats. It just doesn't perform to its full potenial without SSE2. I see this new chip as more of a "buffer zone" between the P3 and the Itanium. Just to keep the mhz up to par with AMD. You can't really compare the P4 and Clawhammer, cuz they are different generations. The clawhammer would compare with the Itanium, since they are both 64bit chips (hammer is x86-64 though).

[Win_98]

I think P4 1.4,1.5gig is just a marketing stratagie, don't think that they going to sell much maybe very few. But They are trying to make themselve look good therefore getting more people to buy from Intel instead. But can these P4 really perform?! slower then 1gig at most thing.
Instead of being competitive, they just want to be one step ahead! even if it mean making CPU at higher mhz and being slower then their counterpart. bottom line, they not trying to sell the P4, they are just using it as a promotion thing to get YA to buy from INTEL ONLY

[evenorel Jr]

ND- very well informed posts. Welcome
to sysopt! =)
Intel had a bad year in 2000, its
unknown if they will learn from their
mistakes . Dont compare p4 architecture
to the athalon, theyre of different generations. If I was to bet, id say
sledgehammer will blow away the p4.
Buy amd stock now! But in the longer run,
intel has such massive marketshare, that
a change to better mgt could reverse its
problems. Dont count cyrix out now that
VIA has bought them.

[RLT65]

There is still a very large & unknown corporation called "wintel" and as long as it is around, AMD will have serious problems. Remember, if AMD ever goes away, intel will raise their CPU prices by 500%, just like the 80's & early to mid 90's!

Rhonda

[Aleph1]

You would have to compare the AMD palomino core to the P4.

[NDD]

Good day everyone !
evenorel Jr - http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
Palomino (based on Mustang core) is not gonna be an equal P4 rival, the main improvements with this one gonna be .13 micron techprocess, vs .18 micron as current, which means mostly higher clock rates, up to 2 GHz, as it seems to be planned, but also gonna be much hotter then even highest Athlons (I gonna get 1.2 GHz next week, gonna try to cool it with ORB, tell you the results).
The second thing planned is bigger on-die full-speed L2 cache, 1-2 MB.
And the third is a possible use of new bus, which will replace current EV6, LDT (Lighting Data Transfer), "borrowed" from an old AMD friend, Alpha. I'm not sure, but it will possibly go 400+ MHz, P4 - beware. LDT gonna support up to 6.4 GBps of bandwidth, vs. P4s' 3.2 GBps ...
All for now ...

[Win_98]

Where do you guy get all the money to buy these stuff. Do you have any plan for retirement. What will you do when you are unable to work when you are too weak to. SAVE money and invest, not spend it all while you are young and capable of making money. BTW: what do you do with your PC that requires FASTER then 500mhz or 600mhz.

[NDD]

Question - Win_98, how old are you ?! http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
I'm 27 years old, senior software developer in one firm and project chief in some start-up. I also for already 8 years have a nice big share at the local hardware store, which allows me to have all the wonderful things I mention, we just order them, use them and after few months sell them to some customer http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif . If you mentioned "saving", I invest in few stocks, also giving me some additional money ... In last year I made about 250k US$ after taxes, I already own nice house, married to my beautiful wife and have little blonde two years old dougther ...
I still drive my old 1992 BMW 320i http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif
So don't let my financial situation bother you, OK ?!

Now to computers and your MHz question ...
I have a friend working as graphic artist in advertisment company, and sometimes, when I have some free time http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/frown.gif , I help him with his work ...
Can you tell me what DIFFERENCE makes T-Bird 1.1 vs Duron 600 in PhotoShop and 3Ds ?
I can, coz i owned both. PhotoFu****Shop is so hungry for resources, that I had to install 512 MB PC133 ECC Infenion, and I thinking about more. Maybe I complaining just "because", but I really don't like to wait much when rendering some pic ... I sometimes play Q3/UT/etc and some racing games, so FPS plays big role (I own GF2 GTS now, and sometimes old T-Bird 750 just wasn't enought ... duh)
I must say, that 1.1 GHz to 1.2 GHz upgrade is insane, but I just wanted the top, also I will able to sell it in next few months, but this time I gonna get some killer DDR memory with T-Bird running on 266 MHz bus and maybe even GF3/NV20 http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif
And after this - who knows ...

P.S. Sorry for not being so computer oriented this time http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Good Day Everyone !

[TechJumper]

^ bump ^ Hey---this is a Cool thread


Mike

ND---I just hope someday I have those luxuries (14 yrs now, at 21, who knows?) http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by TechJumper (edited 12-12-2000).]

[NDD]

Dude, if u got some amount of gray fluid in your head, u can get everything, u don't really need me to state this fact ... Besides, these are not luxuries, I deserve it http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

Another computer-UNrelated post http://sysopt.earthweb.com/forum/smile.gif

For this to be one - Worm, my Intel buddy, where r u ? Come despute with me some more ...

[This message has been edited by ND (edited 12-13-2000).]